94 honda accord - timing belt/water P round 2

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columnshift

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Yep that never even got done last fall. Everything gets pushed back until there's time and money for it or it blows up. :p Trying to do it finally now.


I had all the notes that I took watching videos before - and then the computer I took the notes on died about a month ago. So I have to re-research things. :- /



Car is a 1994 Accord EX 4cyl with around 240,000 miles, automatic and AC if it matters. No evidence of when/if timing belt was last done. Even more important to do is the water pump which is leaking like a sieve.


Problem #1 - which one do I order? I think I had decided at least an Aisin kit but then someone said that's still not factory. Which is the quality part that will last at least 70,000 miles (not some chinese garbage) and is the best deal online or are they available at any Autozone/etc? Then what ELSE should I order if anything besides that?


I should note that this engine seems to have alot of little leaks (oil and coolant though I think the coolant is from just the water pump... I hope...) and because i'm trying to be smarter than my normal self, if there are other things convenient or likely to need replacing to be reliable which are messed with at the same time - it's fine to do those too if you tell me to look. I've stupidly put this off since fall but had no choice with everything else in life going to H in a handbasket but now it's finally time to fix it since it didn't blow up by now.

Other people had mentioned I might have to consider replacing things like cam tensioner, spark plug tube seals whatever that is, harmonic balancer seal... i'm not sure what is included in what kit, or if I can inspect status before tearing the car apart to know what else to order, or if I should inspect things as I take it apart/before I put it back together. Just want to make the master To Do list (as I rewatch the instructional videos and wait for parts to arrive) taking any further advice from here into account.



I already know about the miserable 1200ft/lbs bolt that really wants an impact wrench and the special tool which Autozone borrows.
 
I just put an Aisin T belt kit on my '96 Accord LX - so the non DOHC. Some Honda parts in it (springs?). Your head is more expensive to fix and replace than the SOHC I have been told. Bought my parts at Rockauto.com. Water pump included. $100 for the kit compared to nearly $200 at NAPA. I also did the gaskets (full gasket kit at Rockauto was around $100) and a radiator ($50 at Rockauto). My buddy is the mechanic, I am mostly the flashlight holder and/or bolt remover/breaker.

My engine is in great shape, no cylinder wall wear at 226k. My buddy was pretty impressed. It leaked oil into the spark plug tubes, so while it was apart I put in new seals. If you don't want to do that, you can just loosen the spark plugs and drain the oil out in to the cylinders. It worked for me for the 10k miles I drove this car with 4 bent valves (from a broken timing belt that happened before I bought it - happened at 216k). I drained the oil every 1k miles to avoid shorting the spark plugs!

Mine runs like a top now, ready to stay in the fleet for 5-7 more years. She is leak free again. Does not burn any oil. Love that car.
 
My engines cylinder head work was done for $234. That included four new valves - both exhaust valves on cylinder 2 & 4, they also cleaned and ground down the head. They set my valve lash for $5. They said the valve lash was way off. My engine does not have much of a maintenance history. I know the timing belt was never done! LOL
 
Aisin kit is generally good. The Gates kit is hit or miss. If the tensioners/idlers are made in Japan it is good. Just don't ever use their water pump. I always use an Aisin or OEM Honda pump.

At that mileage I replace everything. Pump, all three oil seals, balance shaft belt, all tensioners and idlers.

I would just get the Aisin TKH006 plus the crank and balance shaft seals. Maybe an oil pan gasket if you feel up to it since it's up in the air already. Definitely get a full valve cover gasket set. And at that mileage I would replace the cam seal and distributor seal.
 
Recently had my mechanic install the Aisin kit in my Accord. It's very good quality.

Just make sure you, or whoever does the work doesn't over-tighten the belts. When I got my car back, it had this awful whine under the timing cover due to an improperly tensioned balancer belt. I also had the cam, crank, balancer shaft and oil gear seals done using Honda parts for peace of mind. Should never have to worry about them again.
 
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Back when I did the timing belt (2003?) on our '94 Accord I remember that balancer bolt being lots of fun. I bought a long breaker bar for the job since a friend tried to do one on another Accord and a big impact wouldn't budge it. If memory serves, I wedged a large blade screwdriver in the ring gear and kicked the breaker bar with my foot and it did the trick. Before I tried that I made sure that the socket that I used was a good one (was likely a short, tight 6 point) and that the breaker bar was braced in such a way that when I kicked it everything would stay straight. A stripped head on that bolt would have been a disaster.

Getting the plastic timing cover out of the engine bay was fun as well as there was really not enough room. I also remember that getting the tension right on that balancer belt was tricky. I think I turned the engine backwards just slightly to get it right.

I think I used Continental belts and a Japanese water pump and tensioner set (likely was Koyo or Aisin). I also adjusted the valves while I was at it. I think I left the oil seals alone since I don't remember there being any leaks. After it was done, the engine ran like a Swiss watch like it had before, but I didn't enjoy that job very much.

Andrew S.
 
I've been very happy with the Aisin kits. Excellent quality.

My sister in law's Highlander developed a coolant leak at 140k miles. I had her purchase an Aisin kit and I swapped it out for her. The leak was due to a failing Gates water pump that the previous owner put on (as part of a Gates kit). Sitting on the bench side by side, the quality of the Gates pump and the Aisin was evident.

The bearings in the Aisin kits are very high quality, as are the belts and gaskets. All around, just good stuff.

If you're pinching every last penny, then I completely understand going for a cheaper kit. Otherwise, I'd recommend the Aisin 100% of the time. I buy mine from Amazon. Usually the cheapest and Prime, FTW.
 
The Aisin kit isn't factory for Honda but it is every bit as good as the OEM stuff (it is factory for most Toyota cars). I used one on the last belt change in my Accord and it was replacing a Gates kit that I had installed only 30,000 miles before. It has been far longer than that now and the Aisin water pump is not leaking coolant out the weep hole like the Gates pump did.

Also, just personal opinion but to get that crank bolt off just buy a pulley holder on Amazon and a 3/4" breaker bar and socket at Harbor Freight. It will come off with relative ease.

If you find the lower timing cover has worn through where it was contacting the harmonic balancer, it is because the balancer is wobbling. I saw this on mine before I started to replace the belt, and I bought a new balancer from Honda. It runs fine now without wobbling and without contacting the cover.

Originally Posted By: columnshift
Problem #1 - which one do I order? I think I had decided at least an Aisin kit but then someone said that's still not factory. Which is the quality part that will last at least 70,000 miles (not some chinese garbage) and is the best deal online or are they available at any Autozone/etc? Then what ELSE should I order if anything besides that?
 
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Creating a visual break, in the hopes of mildly resetting the conversation since it seems to drift a little otherwise.
smile.gif



I am planning to order Aisin TKH-006 Engine Timing Belt Kit with Water Pump from amazon which is the same price after shipping as it is from Rock Auto. Says "AISIN TKH006 INCLUDES WATER PUMP; AISIN Water Pump, KOYO Tensioner Bearing, NSK Balance Shaft Tensioner Bearing, Mitsuboshi Timing Belt, Mitsuboshi Balance Shaft Belt, Honda Geniune Tensioner Spring, Honda Genuine Balance Shaft Tensioner Spring"

I think i've got a good how to video (or several) bookmarked by now, and will try and get a Haynes or Chiltons from the library to doublecheck any relevant torque specs.


The main question remaining - while I am in the process of disassembly, are there any other parts that I should or oughta be looking for, or inspecting, or seeing if they also need repair while I already have things half apart?

Two things other people mentioned I might want to do while it's open are the spark plug tube seals and harmonic balancer seal, which I didn't see listed in the included parts of the Aisin kit and remember i'm no car genius. So I was curious in what was involved in inspecting (to know if they are worn out/need replacement) and possibly also what extra steps are needed for the replacing, since i'm not quite sure whats being referred to.


I wasnt planning on pulling the head off (and don't know why I would at this stage), my leaks are mostly about oil coming from various seals and gaskets that are [censored] out even if i'm not sure which they are at this point. Only concerned with any which might be involved in the process of removing/replacing water pump and timing belt though, if it's things elsewhere on the engine like a valve cover gasket that sits til this job is done. But if it's something that requires me to unbolt everything down and under the timing belt again, yes i'd much rather fix it this time and not have to get back there again.

aka I think I can follow the how-to videos i've watched on the timing belt. If I go too far off track with extra things I might get messed up.



Jim Truett - "Pump, all three oil seals, balance shaft belt, all tensioners and idlers." should all those parts be included in my chosen Aisen kit or do I have to order something extra?

mclasser - "also had the cam, crank, balancer shaft and oil gear seals done using Honda parts for peace of mind." I'm willing to inspect extra parts (and replace any that are not too much additional work/only trying to avoid overly complicating things when this is my first timing belt and second water pump ever) if someone can instruct me what to look for or show me a video showing what to look for and how to fix.

cpayne5 - "If you're pinching every last penny, then I completely understand going for a cheaper kit." Not pinching pennies, trying to do right. But the main money savings is doing the labor myself and trying to avoid overly complicating things I don't have enough experience on. Combined with the car not being worth too much if I screw up in the worst of cases. So if there's another leaky part right along the path i'm going already costing another $10 for peace of mind or to be safe, sure i'll replace it. I like to fix things once, not twice, and do everything needing doing on the same session if I can.



Not too worried about the crank bolt, watched enough videos and am prepared with four foot cheater bars, penetrating oil, and a torch if it just wont come.
smile.gif
Mostly concerned about keeping my mental orientation and fixing whatever needs fixing once i've got all the other parts off so that I don't have to do all this again anytime soon. It will probably be spread over several days and i'll post photos through my confusion.

PS - if people watching/lurking want to see specific photos as I work on it, youre free to ask too? I ask for help which I hope is also useful for others - it takes me little to document some part of it to return the favor to the board.
 
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The Aisin kit doesn't come with the crank seal (harmonic balancer seal. Your car seals the front main at the oil pump, not the balancer) or either balance shaft seal. I recommend getting those parts at the dealer, along with a cam seal and distributor o-ring.
 
Originally Posted By: Jim_Truett
The Aisin kit doesn't come with the crank seal (harmonic balancer seal. Your car seals the front main at the oil pump, not the balancer) or either balance shaft seal. I recommend getting those parts at the dealer, along with a cam seal and distributor o-ring.


Anything tricky about putting in these extra seals, is it something that comes off anyways during the disassembly so its zero effort to put in new ones? (I can follow instructions, but I do not understand very well beyond the instructions what else I may be doing esp when i've never done it before) Else what is required for these things to be done while I have things otherwise apart?

Is there a reason to get at the dealer instead of B&M stores/Autozone type or Rock Auto/Amazon/etc? Wants good quality just not to overpay if it's the same thing.
 
I would say if the seal looks good, don't bother trying to replace it. Do your belts, tensioner and water pump. Which tensioner is it? The hydro automatic or a spring and pully?
 
Originally Posted By: iluvhonda
I would say if the seal looks good, don't bother trying to replace it. Do your belts, tensioner and water pump. Which tensioner is it? The hydro automatic or a spring and pully?


I don't necessarily agree with the " if it looks good don't touch it" seal crowd. I just did this job on my Subaru Outback. I did the cam seals but left the crank seal alone because it "looked good". Got it all back together and a week later the crank seal started leaking. I had to pull it all back apart to replace the crank seal.... I'd say use OEM seals and replace them while you have it apart.

I used a Aisin water pump on mine instead of paying 4x for a OEM and it was great quality. Stick OEM for seals though.
 
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Originally Posted By: iluvhonda
I would say if the seal looks good, don't bother trying to replace it. Do your belts, tensioner and water pump. Which tensioner is it? The hydro automatic or a spring and pully?


How can you see if the rubber has hardened or has cracks starting to form? There might not be much evidence of leaking now, but what about the next seven year belt change interval? Not worth the chance of ruining the belts with oil spray from a failed seal.
 
Originally Posted By: columnshift

Anything tricky about putting in these extra seals, is it something that comes off anyways during the disassembly so its zero effort to put in new ones? (I can follow instructions, but I do not understand very well beyond the instructions what else I may be doing esp when i've never done it before) Else what is required for these things to be done while I have things otherwise apart?

Is there a reason to get at the dealer instead of B&M stores/Autozone type or Rock Auto/Amazon/etc? Wants good quality just not to overpay if it's the same thing.


They can be tricky to remove and replace in-chassis. I don't know your mechanical ability or tool selection so I can't speak for difficulty. I have seal extracting tools and many different types of drivers. This is an OK video: Youtube

I have had the best luck with OEM seals for fit and longevity.
 
Well i'm already sold on the theory of "just replace it if it's not too hard" for general insurance. But if the job is too difficult I have to just do what I can do and put it back together - it's more important to run without blowing up (due to water pump/timing belt failure) than to be perfectly leak free.

My mechanical ability is that i've successfully replaced a clutch as my pride and accomplishment, but I still cant identify all the parts i'm seeing without a guide for any job i'm not familiar with and I don't feel comfortable doing too many new things at once. Tools I can buy or rent, but if i'm spending hundreds on use once tools the interest starts to drop.


Best revised suggestion - tell me which seals and such are relatively easy to do while I have things apart and i'll do them. (anything that can show a video being almost needed as I do not know what i'm doing from just a description, hence not an over reliance on factory manuals - theyre an assistance, not my primary reference, i'm the kind who has to see it done) If it's harder i'll have to think about it... if something is clearly or obviously broken or degraded i'll have no choice. (I will post pictures when it's all apart) I'm just a bit concerned about fumblehandedly scoring up things or not properly getting the seal in if that video is representative also of a honda oil seal. Does no good to try and make it better and make it worse.


It's also a question of consequence, will a leaking oil seal just be an annoyance of drip drip, or will it degrade the timing belt like the water pump leaking apparently does? If it degrades things I might just have to try and do them hard or not. If it's just a minor annoyance I have other oil leaking sources i'm just topping off some extra oil on already, and might come back to it in a year or two when a spare car is more readily available in case it ends up being a long drawn out process of endless picture postings and requests for second by second walkthroughs since i'm not that great of a mechanic, I just do it because i'm poor. >_<
 
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