Motor oil university 106

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Thanks, I will do a search on your name and synthetic, but I'll prolly get a gazzilion hits ... I need some way to get a little further below the common opinion regarding "real" synthetics and get some information that is reliable as to friction reduction, and possible heat reduction from in-bearing "shear friction" being less. Any pointers to meaningful threads greatly appreciated
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I think I found the two threads to which you referred that discussed GC; one from Terry and I about '04, and one from Tom in NJ about'06.

And yes all of the links are gone.

Here is my recollection of that situation:

Terry took contributions from BITOG memmbers to have the Green Coolaid analyzed. At the time, we were trying to determine the makeup of its base oils since the controversy was raging as to whether GC contained any esters or not.

The results of these spectro instrument graphs were sent to myself and at least one other person for analysis.

When the various graphs came back from the instrument analyst, it was indeterminate as to some of it's constituents.

I supplied a number of pure Group IV and Group V base oils, and some polymer chemistry's for the instrument analyst to act as definitive "markers" and the analysis was repeated.

Looking at the repeat analysis, it appeared there was a chemistry in GC that had the molecular markings of both an ester and a PAO.

At that time, there were some esoteric research papers discussing a reacted PAO/Ester chemistry that combined the advantages of both PAO and an ester. However, further research showed that this PAO/Ester chemistry was not in current production.

Furthermore, a closer examination showed this compound to be more closely related to a KetjenLube derivative, a polymer related to an ethoxylated ester. This was the also general opinion of Tom in NJ later in'06.

SO it appeared GC did have an ester-like polymer component as an additive - but it was predominately PAO.

Since then, a company has produced a reacted PAO/Ester chemistry to be used as a base oil or as an additive.
 
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Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Thanks, I will do a search on your name and synthetic, but I'll prolly get a gazzilion hits ... I need some way to get a little further below the common opinion regarding "real" synthetics and get some information that is reliable as to friction reduction, and possible heat reduction from in-bearing "shear friction" being less. Any pointers to meaningful threads greatly appreciated
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In the meantime I will look at my collection of past SAE papers and if I have time, do a search of the SAE and chemistry and tribology databases.
 
Thanks again. It all goes to maybe a better description of how synthetics can be superior... I'm like you in that if it's a synthetic, it needs to be a real one.

I have no beef with high refined dino oils as being good. Good Lord, I'm sort of the poster boy for Delo400. But it ain't a real synthetic in my mind. I have reserved that for Motul300V and a few others (Ravenol, etc...).

So I need clarification when getting ready to write a seed paper to be considered as a start for a Oil U re-write ...

Broc
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Been there and dissected those threads. They are the ones with the broken links, etc. referred to above. Somewhat frustrating ...
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But I'm sure the knowledgeable chemists here can bring back the approximate make-up of most of the real synthetics, or at least approximate the base stocks ...

I agree 100% that it's the total package that counts. I was never a big-time oil blender. I made some home brews back in the day to keep drag motors and 2-stroke race motors alive before modern oils became as good as they are. That's one reason I have a soft spot for RAT, but I'm not leaning on any of his findings for a leading banner piece for any website ...
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
B
Seriously, if Delo 15W30 was available down here, it would be in my Caprice (currently magnatec 10W30 semi synth A3/B4)...still sticking to synths for the turbodiesel.


Even here in cheap oil USA, this stuff is like $20/gal. Bummer...
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
I think I found the two threads to which you referred that discussed GC; one from Terry and I about '04, and one from Tom in NJ about'06.

And yes all of the links are gone.


Are these the links?

GC on GC

GC Composition

Tom NJ
 
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
I think I found the two threads to which you referred that discussed GC; one from Terry and I about '04, and one from Tom in NJ about'06.

And yes all of the links are gone.


Are these the links?



Tom NJ



Those are the ones and after I found them I neglected to link them.

SHANNOW found them as well:

Originally Posted By: Shannow
BrocLuno, some light reading
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/707800/1

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/754434/1

Seriously, if Delo 15W30 was available down here, it would be in my Caprice (currently magnatec 10W30 semi synth A3/B4)...still sticking to synths for the turbodiesel.
 
Yes those are the links and I read that over twice last night. But I got lost between GC and Zoil ... Was that some sort of short hand?

What I was looking for was sort of best of breed in Synthetics short of Motul300V. GC seemed to me to be the common mans high end PAO (ester?) synthetic. If I could wrap my mind around that, I thought I could get a good baseline for concept of good synthetic w/o going to high-end Motul, Redline, Amsoil, Ravenol, etc.

I was looking for information that would indicate where and when synthetics may have become "better enough" to warrant the diatribe in Oil U.

I know that in some of my go-faster motors, I would consider $18/L Motul300V. That would be $150 for each oil change (7 qt pan). Kinda like buying racing slicks. Not something you do every day...

But that is not practical for the "everyman" oil change. And throwing out the USA pseudo synthetics as really just high-end blends, I'm at a loss of where to start the discussion of Dino vs Blend vs real Synthetic and what that means in terms of friction reduction and heat capability.

I think I could craft a paragraph about how it might be better to use Rotella T6 that a straight dino oil (say Chevron Supreme 10W-40). But if those are the sideboards, I know there is not enough improvement to really warrant the whole hyperbole around synthetics. So there must be one notch up from Rotella T6 with actual provable gains at a somewhat affordable price ... Something reasonable to discuss...

I get real synthetics for racing as oil temps can get very high with any loss of coolant. But we have millions of fans of USA pseudo synthetics in their pick-up that never see the north side of 3,500 RPM. And they are raving about this and that effect... And often they quote Oil U ...

If I'm going to try to describe the situation differently, I need other info ...

And I'm purposely staying away from Mobil-1 with their ongoing reformulations and the endless fan-boy support. Plus I'll bet we don't know what's in there either (pick an iteration)...
 
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Broc, good luck with this project. I also wish for greater accuracy, and on this site it should be accurate. We are all depending on you, and look forward to your timely and thorough completion of this noble task. No pressure..... ;-)
 
greater accuracy? could you give an exemple ? because the way you word it? i am positive the mods here must be feeling bad for doing such an unprecise job .and there i tought the guys at bitog did an awsome job with the limited ressource they have.oh well i guess i was wrong!
 
Originally Posted By: BrovLuno
What I was looking for was sort of best of breed in Synthetics short of Motul300V. GC seemed to me to be the common mans high end PAO (ester?) synthetic. If I could wrap my mind around that, I thought I could get a good baseline for concept of good synthetic w/o going to high-end Motul, Redline, Amsoil, Ravenol, etc.

I was looking for information that would indicate where and when synthetics may have become "better enough" to warrant the diatribe in Oil U.

I know that in some of my go-faster motors, I would consider $18/L Motul300V. That would be $150 for each oil change (7 qt pan). Kinda like buying racing slicks. Not something you do every day...


Quite frankly, I wold stay away from naming any Brands or attempting to Grade or Classify according to any rule.

I think most people want technical facts, not opinions.
 
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I understand, but I suspect that naming a brand/Grade in each of the three main categories would be OK as an example;

1.) Best of breed in Dino oil

2.) Best of breed in (USA) synthetic

3.) Best of breed in real synthetic (as defined by Euro labeling requirements)...

Would allow others to read on. Or maybe not as the Mobil1 thing did not work out all that well in the existing Motor Oil U... To many formulation changes over time to be a consistent target ...
 
I see your point, but there are a couple issues with that. What you want to accomplish is fine, but first off, we don't want to step on sponsors' toes. Secondly, things change, and sometimes very rapidly and fluidly. Look at the M1 0w-40 issue as it stands now; not only do formulations change (including swings in base stocks), but specifications met change, too.

Further, as you well know, it's really difficult to name something as "best" of a category when there are very different, yet equally correct, ways to consider a product as "best." Some fixate on Noack, others on one of several additive levels, others on cost, and others ensuring that the most number of specs are met, even for a basic API oil.

So, which is better between Valvoline VR-1 10w-30 and VWB 10w-30? VR-1 is cheaper at regular price up here (believe it or not). It has more zinc. VWB rolls back frequently and is in a better jug size. It also meets specifications and is a great SN/GF-5 oil, functionally interchangeable with other oils of the same specification and grade.

Of course, it only gets more complex if we start to figure out which is the "best" of the ILSAC PCMOs, let alone synthetics, no matter how one defines that term. I would suggest you would have a great deal of hand wringing if you were to even try to list examples of a conventional and a synthetic and a Euro synthetic. The base stock arguments still occur, and we don't always know what's in an oil anyhow. Also, what is a good example of a European synthetic, if I asked for an example? Which would be a better example between Castrol Edge 5w-30 A3/B4 and Castrol Edge 5w-30 C2?

I love the concept. But, the execution will, at the very least, create a fanboy war.
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Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
I understand, but I suspect that naming a brand/Grade in each of the three main categories would be OK as an example;

1.) Best of breed in Dino oil

2.) Best of breed in (USA) synthetic

3.) Best of breed in real synthetic (as defined by Euro labeling requirements)...

Would allow others to read on. Or maybe not as the Mobil1 thing did not work out all that well in the existing Motor Oil U... To many formulation changes over time to be a consistent target ...


You might want to rethink writing this if you are seriously considering trying to give a "best in breed oil" in any type - I mean really, do you feel you have enough comparative data to actually compare the performance of two oils? (regardless it's not possible anyways without extensive real world tear downs).

You might want to rethink writing this when you say words like "real synthetic." You lose all credibility by stating those terms.
 
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
I understand, but I suspect that naming a brand/Grade in each of the three main categories would be OK as an example;

1.) Best of breed in Dino oil

2.) Best of breed in (USA) synthetic

3.) Best of breed in real synthetic (as defined by Euro labeling requirements)...

Would allow others to read on. Or maybe not as the Mobil1 thing did not work out all that well in the existing Motor Oil U... To many formulation changes over time to be a consistent target ...


Even if you give good examples, products change all the time.
 
While doing some general engine lubrication research, this time on aero lubes for piston engines, it seems that most do not want any synthetics in there for the first three oil changes. Only dino oil. Then you MAY be free to use syn-blend.

This is from a couple of sites including Blackstone's discussion of aero lubes ...

I personally have never been a fan of pure synthetics. But now even Mobil Aero is listed as a blend with no mention of PAO or the word synthetic in their blurb. It obviously has some GrpIII (+) in there as it's a full 15W-50 oil.

AeroShell is still pushing their single weights and claiming exceptional stability and other good qualities.
 
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