Freshly changed oil in a Diesel engine black?

[UltrafanUK]

Originally Posted By: Uber_Archetype
Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
The maintenance requirement for an EGR equates to around 30 mins labour about every 50 to 100K...

Get a quote from your dealer or local indy shop. And it varies by vehicle - quite a bit, actually - for something that should not be required AT ALL. The cost for REPAIRING a gunked-up intake on some vehicles can run into the thousands of dollars.
Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
An EGR only causes a small increase in the soot loading of the oil and as long as the oil is changed at a sensible interval...

Once again, a non-specific, basically useless comment. Soot-loading is not an issue, EGR or not.
Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
.. based anti wear additives, unless you use expensive oil additives like Ceratec.

So... what's your point? EGR is not a lube OR oil-related issue.
Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK

There is no change in the performance of the engine unless...

Uh, wrong again buddy. Track the MPG on a car with the intake tract slowly narrowing over thousands of miles and years. You don't notice it unless you actually ARE tracking it, or until a CEL illuminates because of about a half dozen other potentially related failures starting to come into play.
Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
If you are interested in engine life expectancy, whilst it is important to use a good oil and filter...

Again, it's not about lube. It's about the millions of vehicles that get junked every year because people are fed up with the maintenance hassles, a good portion of which are emission-related SNAFU's.



An EGR does not gunk up an intake, the intake shutoff valve will get dirty anyway, although that takes a long time and it can be cleaned with a spray in cleaner.

If you read my post correctly, I did point out that soot loading was not a real issue. The EGR does have a minor effect on oil (Slight increase in TBN loss and insolubles), but that is taken into account in the max recommended oil change intervals and anyone doing extended OCI's like myself bases their decisions on a UOA anyway. So it does not matter.

Even a fouled up EGR will not damage an engine and no one junks a car or truck just because they can't be bothered to get the EGR cleaned. The same can't be said of a DPF system, as that is far more expensive to replace.
I agree that the MPG figures will suffer if you don't clean the EGR, but the same can be said about many service related items.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK


An EGR does not gunk up an intake, the intake shutoff valve will get dirty anyway, although that takes a long time and it can be cleaned with a spray in cleaner.


See this thread:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...s_turbo_failure

And yes, EGR on a diesel most certainly can lead to accumulation of deposits on the intake and intake runners, I have a buddy who is a diesel mechanic and deals with this stuff daily. Emissions-laden diesels are a huge money maker.

His VT365 (Ford 6.0L PSD) had some pretty thick intake runner deposits from the EGR, which, coupled with multiple EGR cooler failures (another fun "feature"), resulted in him deleting the EGR on his F-250. This netted him a 2MPG economy increase and of course a cleaner intake tract and no cooler issues.

You should probably read this as well:
http://www.brakeandfrontend.com/getting-stoked-to-service-the-6-0l-power-stroke/

 

[chrisri]

There is no one way approach with EGR. It really depends upon intake manifold design, and EGR itself. There are benefit with deleting EGR in some engines (like puma 2.2), but IME really problematic engines are in minority.
We have several high mileage diesels, all standard yet no EGR problems to speak of.
1.6 HDI -300k
1.5 DCI- 430k
1.9 JTDM- 160k

HDI needs some cleaning up.

 

[Uber_Archetype]

Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
An EGR does not gunk up an intake, the...

I'm just gonna say "wrong again, buddy..." and hope you stop.

 

[UltrafanUK]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK


An EGR does not gunk up an intake, the intake shutoff valve will get dirty anyway, although that takes a long time and it can be cleaned with a spray in cleaner.


See this thread:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...s_turbo_failure

And yes, EGR on a diesel most certainly can lead to accumulation of deposits on the intake and intake runners, I have a buddy who is a diesel mechanic and deals with this stuff daily. Emissions-laden diesels are a huge money maker.

His VT365 (Ford 6.0L PSD) had some pretty thick intake runner deposits from the EGR, which, coupled with multiple EGR cooler failures (another fun "feature"), resulted in him deleting the EGR on his F-250. This netted him a 2MPG economy increase and of course a cleaner intake tract and no cooler issues.

You should probably read this as well:
http://www.brakeandfrontend.com/getting-stoked-to-service-the-6-0l-power-stroke/


You are talking about one specific engine that has a badly designed EGR cooler and intake.
There are quite a number of different EGR systems in use and most of them do not cause problems, the ones fitted to diesel cars and small trucks are particulary good, but the same can't be said of some EGR systems fitted to larger diesel trucks as an afterthought by the manufacturer.

Fuel quality is also a factor in causing deposits in the exhaust system and I get the impression that the US has more issues with poor fuel than the EU, although the standards are supposed to have improved recently.
The EGR, CAT and DPF will all stay cleaner much longer if the injection system is maintained correctly. The big mistake that many owners make is in using non OEM standard fuel filters and failing to use a good injection system fuel additive every OCI (The direct feed ones that can be used to top up the fuel filter housing are best) when they are using poor quality diesel that does not contain enough additives to prevent gum formation in the injectors.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK

You are talking about one specific engine that has a badly designed EGR cooler and intake.


Actually, no, I gave you examples of two (Cummins and International). The cooler issue is International, but both suffer deposits. Diesel exhaust is dirty; far dirtier than that of a gasoline engine. It has more particulate in it and by introducing that exhaust/particulate into the intake tract, you are creating a situation where some of it will accumulate within the intake, cooler and tubing.

As I said, my buddy works on this stuff daily, I can give you examples from any of the OTR truck engines, which are the ones that get high miles. Emissions systems on diesel engines are big money makers for shops, and the more complicated they become, the bigger a revenue source they are.

But this is not exclusive to big trucks. Here's an article on cleaning your TDI intake (due to EGR deposits):
http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/intake...mk4-tdi-engine/

Now, I believe US emissions standards for diesels are more stringent than they are in Europe, so perhaps that's the disconnect here?

 

[UltrafanUK]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK

You are talking about one specific engine that has a badly designed EGR cooler and intake.


Actually, no, I gave you examples of two (Cummins and International). The cooler issue is International, but both suffer deposits. Diesel exhaust is dirty; far dirtier than that of a gasoline engine. It has more particulate in it and by introducing that exhaust/particulate into the intake tract, you are creating a situation where some of it will accumulate within the intake, cooler and tubing.

As I said, my buddy works on this stuff daily, I can give you examples from any of the OTR truck engines, which are the ones that get high miles. Emissions systems on diesel engines are big money makers for shops, and the more complicated they become, the bigger a revenue source they are.

But this is not exclusive to big trucks. Here's an article on cleaning your TDI intake (due to EGR deposits):
http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/intake...mk4-tdi-engine/

Now, I believe US emissions standards for diesels are more stringent than they are in Europe, so perhaps that's the disconnect here?


As I said in my last comment the EGR systems in some US big trucks are more problematic and my comments are more about car and small truck engines that use a different type of valve and intake system. For some odd reason some owners don't bother to clean the intake or EGR until there is a warning light or excessive lag when booted.
Most intakes are easy to clean with a spray. This is the one I use:
http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/produ...voiladb=web.nsf

I looked at the link about cleaning the TDI intake and it's daft as no one I know pulls their intake apart, they just use a spray.

With regards to avoiding the need to remove and clean the EGR, it is important to get some WOT (Max continous power if possible) time in about every month, as that will burn most of the deposits out of an EGR.

 

[OVERKILL]

How do you know you have the whole thing clean if you just use a spray? Are you using a scope to check? If you don't have EGR, you don't have to clean anything, it simply stays that way. I would take your comment one step further: I would say MOST owners don't bother to clean the intake or EGR, nor even know they "should". And it could be argued that they shouldn't have to; it isn't part of "normal maintenance".

Pre-EGR diesels didn't have this issue, and just because it doesn't become as big an issue in certain applications like it can on an OTR diesel, but still requires what you described above.... that's a significant step back from the pain-free diesel ownership of the past. You've obviously come to accept cleaning parts of or your entire intake tract and EGR valve as "normal", but I'm quite certain that many others don't share this sentiment and this is a pretty big step away from your earlier statement of:

Originally Posted By: UltraFanUK
An EGR does not gunk up an intake


Because clearly they DO and even when I gave an example with the TDI you've chosen to criticize the method taken to deal with the issue rather than acknowledge the validity of the issue itself. That speaks volumes.

Your initial statement was an absolute. It was one that was factually incorrect, which was why I took exception and gave examples. You acknowledged those examples but chose to redirect and paint them as exceptions rather than acknowledging the invalidity of your previous remarks, which at that point had been proven incorrect. I acknowledged (with caveat) the situational and applicational aspects of those remarks but also brought forth the VW example as an indication that this was simply not isolated to OTR trucks as you had shifted to from your initial position, but rather one that affected passenger car and light diesel applications as well. It was at this point that you then decided to criticize the process taken to clean the TDI intake, rather than again, acknowledging not only the existence of the issue, but also your initial statement as incorrect.

We can play this game as long as you want but I really don't see the purpose. EGR creates, in many diesel engines, problematic intake tract deposits, that, depending on the design, can range from relatively easy to downright difficult to deal with and require significant disassembly. This is not an issue on a diesel without EGR. Ergo, your initial statement is factually incorrect. That's the problem with making absolute statements when talking about something that is so, by definition, variable.

My intention is not to be rude or uncivil here, so please keep that in mind. I would however like you to take pause and consider your initial statement in light of this discussion and understand why issue was taken with it.

 

[slammds15]

Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK

You are talking about one specific engine that has a badly designed EGR cooler and intake.


Actually, no, I gave you examples of two (Cummins and International). The cooler issue is International, but both suffer deposits. Diesel exhaust is dirty; far dirtier than that of a gasoline engine. It has more particulate in it and by introducing that exhaust/particulate into the intake tract, you are creating a situation where some of it will accumulate within the intake, cooler and tubing.

As I said, my buddy works on this stuff daily, I can give you examples from any of the OTR truck engines, which are the ones that get high miles. Emissions systems on diesel engines are big money makers for shops, and the more complicated they become, the bigger a revenue source they are.

But this is not exclusive to big trucks. Here's an article on cleaning your TDI intake (due to EGR deposits):
http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/intake...mk4-tdi-engine/

Now, I believe US emissions standards for diesels are more stringent than they are in Europe, so perhaps that's the disconnect here?


As I said in my last comment the EGR systems in some US big trucks are more problematic and my comments are more about car and small truck engines that use a different type of valve and intake system. For some odd reason some owners don't bother to clean the intake or EGR until there is a warning light or excessive lag when booted.
Most intakes are easy to clean with a spray. This is the one I use:
http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/produ...voiladb=web.nsf

I looked at the link about cleaning the TDI intake and it's daft as no one I know pulls their intake apart, they just use a spray.

With regards to avoiding the need to remove and clean the EGR, it is important to get some WOT (Max continous power if possible) time in about every month, as that will burn most of the deposits out of an EGR.



You are an idiot. Obviously you are the world's formost leader in super PFM. Maybe marketing has gotten to you, either way I don't care. WOT is when deposits occur and egr is functioning at its max. All the engines I see create deposits whether it's no load or high load. As for deleting egr, it has lead to increased occurences of counterbore wear and valve train issues. I'm sure you know better.

 

[Silk]

Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK

An EGR does not gunk up an intake, it can be cleaned with a spray in cleaner.


I'd like to see you clean these up with a spray can.

Mitsubishi Triton, 4M41 common rail engine.

Mazda BT50, 3.0 DOHC common rail engine.

As far as the original post is concerned, I've been working on diesel engines for 45 years, and engine oil always turns black either instantly after filter run up, or after a short run. Nothing to do with engine design, EGR, common rail or DPF, it just depends on how much residual oil is left in the engine.

 

[jongies3]

Some get black instantly, others go several thousand miles before darkening. My 7.3 falls into the latter category, oil stays clean and never turns tar black which is nice for me. Some Cummins that I change oil on are black as soon as I pump new oil in them, even before they are started! I guess some diesels are just cleaner or dirtier than others. Not sure how or why they vary so much, but I'm glad mine stays nice and clean. It's never gotten so black that I couldn't see through it on the dipstick. Having my oil turn that black right away would bother the [censored] out of me personally. I'd probably have to flush a few quarts of clean oil through the engine every oil change to try and alleviate the problem.

 

[Dak27]

I just had a pm service done on my Detroit Series 60 about 1200 miles ago. The oil has already turned dark, -not coal black yet, but a few thousand miles more and it will be.

As I previously posted, the oil in the Cat motors I've driven seemed to stay cleaner looking for a longer period than the Detroit or Cummins motors I've driven, but it eventually turns black. Completely normal.

 

[userfriendly]

Run your Diesels on natural gas.

http://www.hhpsummit.com

 

[TiredTrucker]

I would love to go to an NG engine in my semi trucks. Just not practical to find fueling locations. Not the best choice for OTR, irregular route trucking. Seems to be only viable for the LTL line haul market since they run dedicated routes that take them out and back, or local P&D trucks.

 

[userfriendly]

Carbon tax credits to the rescue.
Creates government jobs, while saving the whales.

 

[jongies3]

Some engines are different than others. The oil in my 7.3 stays pretty clear all throughout the OCI, even at 5k miles I can still see the crosshatches on the dipstick. It darkens, but I can still see through it just fine.

Then some trucks I work on at the shop are a whole different story. Cummins seems to be the worst. I can dump new oil in one, check it before starting and the oil is already black as tar. Must not be such a bad thing though because I see lots of Cummins with crazy high mileage on them running strong with really black oil.

 

[Amirkhat]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
It doesn't take much time for a diesel engine to put enough soot in the oil to show black on the dipstick within a few hours of operation. Period- engine type doesn't matter much.

Now whether or not the oil turns INSTANTLY dark after a change and first start depends on other things... mainly how much old soot-loaded oil remains in the engine during a routine drain/fill type oil change. On things like a Navistar T444 (Powerstroke 7.2) there's a pretty large volume of oil (a quart or more) in the HPOP system that doesn't get changed unless extra steps are taken, and quickly mixes with the new oil, turning it dark. Even in engines without a "hidden" oil volume like that, designs that have larger pooling places in the heads and intake valley will turn the change dark even quicker.



I think the oil circulates throughout HUEI system, have you see a 7.3 run with the Valve covers off?

 

[Amirkhat]

Originally Posted By: jongies3
Some engines are different than others. The oil in my 7.3 stays pretty clear all throughout the OCI, even at 5k miles I can still see the crosshatches on the dipstick. It darkens, but I can still see through it just fine.

Then some trucks I work on at the shop are a whole different story. Cummins seems to be the worst. I can dump new oil in one, check it before starting and the oil is already black as tar. Must not be such a bad thing though because I see lots of Cummins with crazy high mileage on them running strong with really black oil.

Probably has to do whith the clearances in the engine. I would imagine some spec'd for looser clearances..?

 

[Amirkhat]

Originally Posted By: chrisri
EGR also reduce combustion chamber temperatures which is a VERY good thing for remapped engines. I'm guilty of removing egr in the past, but would hesitate to do it today.

Good point.