Best SAE30 weight oil?

[4WD]

I fully understand what the vis numbers mean and I do hydraulics at work. But forget all the engineering for a moment. Pay attention to these oils when you pour them even in moderate weather. 0W is visibly thinner to me - and fluids flow to the path of least resistance - so it is about even distribution at start up.
This whole debate is like saying engine builders and lubricant companies don't know what they are doing. I doubt single grades will be easier to find 10 years from now.
Some HD engines I work with have pre oilers - so I don't worry about it on those ...

 

[bobbydavro]

0W-30 are thinner than SAE30. Multi grades don't have any VII so they have a thicker base oil to hit the 30 grade window.

By definition a monograde has no VII

 

[4WD]

Couple more points: 100F is still cold if the top end is 212F ... Much written along those lines ...
Lastly, some empirical evidence: bro in law has over 360k on Chevy 1500 gasoline - uses Mobil Super 5W-30 ...
Only wrench that motor has seen pulled the oil filter ...

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: 4WD
I fully understand what the vis numbers mean and I do hydraulics at work. But forget all the engineering for a moment. Pay attention to these oils when you pour them even in moderate weather. 0W is visibly thinner to me - and fluids flow to the path of least resistance - so it is about even distribution at start up.
This whole debate is like saying engine builders and lubricant companies don't know what they are doing. I doubt single grades will be easier to find 10 years from now.
Some HD engines I work with have pre oilers - so I don't worry about it on those ...


But you clearly don't get what the "W" number mean.

But with a positive displacement pump, at pumpable temperatures (like I said, above freezing), the oil will get to the top end at exactly the same rate whether it's SAE30 or 0W30.

You are not pouring them out of a bottle to get to the top end, they are being pumped.

At -10C, you have a different issue, pumpability...that's why "W" ratings came into being, as if the pump can't get the oil, it can't pump it.

More recently, high VI (not W) has been used to improve economy in warm up, by being less viscous.

Again, 0W at 0C will not "get there" any better than the OP's SAE30.

e.g. i this engine test, RAO is rocker arm oiling time.

The SAE30 does exactly the same job at 30F in "getting the medicine to where the hurt is" as the 5W20 did at 12F.

OP running SAE30, 15W30, 10W30, 5W30, or 0W30 will not get oil to the top end any quicker running the wider spread multigrades in his climate.

Regardless of a bottle swish test.

 

[userfriendly]

Some SAE40s are marketed as 25W40, which are basically high VI mono-grade group IIs, possibly with a dash of synthetic to get the cold performance on target.

Using the same logic applied to an SAE30, I suspect that Duron SAE30 or Delvac 1630, just two examples, would both pass 25W if tested.

 

[4WD]

I get the W - winter meaning. I also work with gear pumps other types considered positive displacement albeit they are not even 100% efficient. For sure the suction side can founder in extremes - but not where I was going. The distribution network for the oil has a regulator and a tortuous flow arrangement. Multi vis was the enabler of tight bearing clearances (my comment on path of least resistance) so even when the pump is moving a fixed output - too many paths are networked. The engine designer assumes he/she has thin oil at start up - and will also assume you don't run a synthetic SAE30 (actually better). I run OEM specs ...
Yes - I did a crude pour test at 84F. Side by side the SAE 30 looked like gear oil next to M-1 5W-30 - I have an opinion on which one moves higher flow through my bearings vs somewhere else.
You guys go for it - not me - even my Briggs oil is 5w-30 in the south ...

 

[Shannow]

OK a couple of points.

Your statement was that the multi gets to the remote points faster...this is during startup when the galleries are full (mostly of air)...it's displaced, and provided we are talking above freezing, all hit the finish line at about the same time.

More flow through the bearings ?

This is clearly after "start up"...when the galleries are primed.

Yes, the lower viscosity during warmup will have more flow through the bearings. However, bearings aren't lubricated by flow. Bearings are lubricated by oil, and have "side leakage" the role of the oil pump is to replenish that...thicker oil, they leak less, need less makeup, and build better oil pressure.

As to the statement that multigrades facilitated tighter clearances, I would like some references on that.

A gear pump and hydraulic system in operation isn't what an engine lubrication system is designed to do...it's not for power transmission like hydraulics, it's to provide adequate oil to replenish that which leaks out of bearings and is sprayed out of jets...it's not to "push" oil through bearings.

 

[zeng]

Originally Posted By: 4WD
I get the W - winter meaning. I also work with gear pumps other types considered positive displacement albeit they are not even 100% efficient. For sure the suction side can founder in extremes - but not where I was going. The distribution network for the oil has a regulator and a tortuous flow arrangement. Multi vis was the enabler of tight bearing clearances (my comment on path of least resistance) so even when the pump is moving a fixed output - too many paths are networked. The engine designer assumes he/she has thin oil at start up - and will also assume you don't run a synthetic SAE30 (actually better). I run OEM specs ...
Yes - I did a crude pour test at 84F. Side by side the SAE 30 looked like gear oil next to M-1 5W-30 - I have an opinion on which one moves higher flow through my bearings vs somewhere else.
You guys go for it - not me - even my Briggs oil is 5w-30 in the south ...


'Common sense', often times are flawed when applied in differring/invalid contexts ... as demonstrated above.

 

[4WD]

Start up to me is crank it up and out of the drive way - that is what people do. We all wish they'd warm up a vehicle a bit - not so lucky.
Bearing stand off requires an engineered flow rate - if all wanted was oil pressure - I'd run really thick - but with tight bearings it's going to divert flow elsewhere - again this is all a common network of flow paths where residual pressure sensitivity varies impacted by length, turns, ID, and type (bath vs injected), and yes viscosity - the one I have a choice in.
ID or in the bearing case an annulus has by far the greatest sensitivity to residual pressure.
There are numerous articles around thin oils facilitating tight bearing clearances.
And yes - crankshafts bearings are pressurized - side leakage to me is just the end of a concentric flow path - the tightest and most critical of all ...

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: 4WD
Start up to me is crank it up and out of the drive way - that is what people do. We all wish they'd warm up a vehicle a bit - not so lucky.


Who are "we" and why do they wish people would warm up the vehicle a bit? Doesn't it warm up faster under load, and what's the downside?

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: 4WD
I fully understand what the vis numbers mean and I do hydraulics at work. But forget all the engineering for a moment. Pay attention to these oils when you pour them even in moderate weather. 0W is visibly thinner to me - and fluids flow to the path of least resistance - so it is about even distribution at start up.


So at moderate temperatures a 0W-30 is thinner than a 10W-30?

 

[Jetronic]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: 4WD
I fully understand what the vis numbers mean and I do hydraulics at work. But forget all the engineering for a moment. Pay attention to these oils when you pour them even in moderate weather. 0W is visibly thinner to me - and fluids flow to the path of least resistance - so it is about even distribution at start up.


So at moderate temperatures a 0W-30 is thinner than a 10W-30?


Most 0w-30 will have a higher VI than 10w30 and thus will be thinner at moderate temperatures. But that's not a characteristic of the W-rating, but rather of the base oils used, IMO. The viscosity modifiers have long uncurled at those moderate temperatures

 

[BrocLuno]

Well I went by the John Deere dealer and got prices on Plus50-II: $4.69/qt, $16.25/gallon. I could beat them down some in case lots and certainly in a 55 gal drum.

Looked on the bottom of the bottle, HDPE triangle and a raised square box with a capital G in it. Wonder who that is ...

Been reading about start-up wear and it's related mostly to condensed moisture after shut-down. Also related to over-rich conditions on cold start (fuel wash), even with EFI we have enrichment regimens until op temp.

So looking at residual oil film thickness (a function of viscosity) it seems to vary between 2um and 4um. The thicker oils seem to have a better film on the top of the cylinder wall at shut-down... This film is all there is until the engine has made enough revs to throw new oil on the walls and the piston skirts have carried it up the walls, plus whatever agitated capillary fill is occurring, and that depends on how tightly the pistons were fitted ... Higher viscosity oils will support wider capillary spaces ...

It's still looking like there is a case for either SAE 30 HD or dual viscosity rated synthetics.

And I have found that the pumping TQ of an engine is so close between a 20 and 30 at op temp, that it is really negligible parasitic loss difference. At 50 grade the curves really to diverge...

 

[Merkava_4]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say this is the best SAE 30.

 

[userfriendly]

That is not going out on a limb, but Delo SAE30 & 40 is high SAPS.
I'd say; right after I do the DPF delete on my LML.

 

[roadrunner1]

If you choose to run a 30 wt. the Deere oil is tough to beat as its designed and marketed to be an extended drain oil. I have been running it in my diesels for over 25 years with UOA data from all of them, it holds up very well.

 

[Merkava_4]

Originally Posted By: userfriendly
That is not going out on a limb, but Delo SAE30 & 40 is high SAPS.


I hear'ya ... I wouldn't want no tree sap in my oil either.

 

[BrocLuno]

How far did you push it in extending drains...

 

[BrocLuno]

While doing some general engine lubrication research, this time on aero lubes for piston engines, it seems that most do not want any synthetics in there for the first three oil changes. Only dino oil. Then you MAY be free to use syn-blend.

This is from a couple of sites including Blackstone's discussion of aero lubes ...

I personally have never been a fan of pure synthetics. But now even Mobil Aero is listed as a blend with no mention of PAO or the word synthetic in their blurb. It obviously has some Grp III (+?) in there as it's a full 15W-50 oil.

AeroShell is still pushing their single weights and claiming exceptional stability and other good qualities. Minimum grade is 40 though...

 

[userfriendly]

Check the piston clearance on a piston aircraft engine.
In addition, they sit at one RPM for hours.
And, the oil gets really dirty real fast.

Other than for cold starts, a single grade SAE 50 (100) zero ash with a high flash point makes sense.