I'm a Truck Driver, and and fresh oil turning black rather quickly is completely normal in my experience. Of the Class 8 motors in big trucks, new oil stayed looking translucent the longest in the Caterpillar 3406 and C15 motors that I ran, but within less than a 4 or 5 days of operating them, the oil turned black. I don't know what's different in Caterpillar's design, but new oil keeps looking new for close to a week. Pretty amazing. Fresh oil in the current model Cummins ISX motor and Detroit's DD15 motor turns black really quick. My truck has a pre-epa Detroit Series 60 motor, so no egr, and new oil turns black in just a couple of days.
Freshly changed oil in a Diesel engine black?
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Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Koz1
Its called EGR, Get rid of it.
No it's not. It takes only a tiny bit of carbon black to act like ink and blacken the whole load of oil. The remnant oil in the sump is enough.
A by Product of EGR on Diesels is major soot load in oil much much higher than without.
Soot is very Abrasive.
Originally Posted By: Koz1
Its called EGR, Get rid of it.
No it's not. It takes only a tiny bit of carbon black to act like ink and blacken the whole load of oil. The remnant oil in the sump is enough.
A by Product of EGR on Diesels is major soot load in oil much much higher than without.
Soot is very Abrasive.
Since Trav says its so some diesels run very sooty even without EGR.
Maybe a bad design who knows.
Ill go tell the diesel techs I know LoL cant wait for that conversation.
Cheers.
Maybe a bad design who knows.
Ill go tell the diesel techs I know LoL cant wait for that conversation.
Cheers.
Originally Posted By: Koz1
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Koz1
Its called EGR, Get rid of it.
No it's not. It takes only a tiny bit of carbon black to act like ink and blacken the whole load of oil. The remnant oil in the sump is enough.
A by Product of EGR on Diesels is major soot load in oil much much higher than without.
Soot is very Abrasive.
Too fine to do damage. As long it doesn't get smashed between two metal surfaces simultaneously, it won't do damage.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Koz1
Its called EGR, Get rid of it.
No it's not. It takes only a tiny bit of carbon black to act like ink and blacken the whole load of oil. The remnant oil in the sump is enough.
A by Product of EGR on Diesels is major soot load in oil much much higher than without.
Soot is very Abrasive.
Too fine to do damage. As long it doesn't get smashed between two metal surfaces simultaneously, it won't do damage.
Originally Posted By: Koz1
Since Trav says its so some diesels run very sooty even without EGR.
Maybe a bad design who knows.
Ill go tell the diesel techs I know LoL cant wait for that conversation.
Cheers.
Some of the old diesels without cats would make a good bit of smoke, when they were cold they would really stink the place out, personally I miss the smell of a diesel.
New diesels are much more refined with different types of injectors, that makes a big difference.
Since Trav says its so some diesels run very sooty even without EGR.
Maybe a bad design who knows.
Ill go tell the diesel techs I know LoL cant wait for that conversation.
Cheers.
Some of the old diesels without cats would make a good bit of smoke, when they were cold they would really stink the place out, personally I miss the smell of a diesel.
New diesels are much more refined with different types of injectors, that makes a big difference.
Originally Posted By: Koz1
Since Trav says its so some diesels run very sooty even without EGR.
I would agree. We've had diesels on the farm, and my dad as personal vehicles for years, and this was long before any emissions add ons. Things got black very, very quickly.
Since Trav says its so some diesels run very sooty even without EGR.
I would agree. We've had diesels on the farm, and my dad as personal vehicles for years, and this was long before any emissions add ons. Things got black very, very quickly.
Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
Originally Posted By: Koz1
Its called EGR, Get rid of it.
Don't get rid of an EGR as NOx is nasty stuff. If you delete an EGR the engine will take longer to warm up which increases in cylinder deposits and they don't cause an increase in engine wear. They don't turn the oil black!
New diesel oil will turn black if the engine was designed in such a way that it has a significant amount of residual oil. Obviously if that oil was well used, it will turn the new oil black fairly quickly.
If my diesel oil turns black too quickly after an oil change, I just run an idle flush just before the next OCI, but try and avoid using any type of flush additive if you already have an oil leak issue, as it will increase the drip rate for a while due to the false oil seal effect.
Definitely do get rid of the EGR if possible. I've had two vehicles with EGR, a Unimog and a BMW X5, And on both of them the EGR has failed. Needless to say it is now gone. Getting rid of it actually lowers soot
emission out of the exhaust pipe but but does increase nitrogen oxides slightly. It increases engine longevity and reliability very significantly.
Originally Posted By: Koz1
Its called EGR, Get rid of it.
Don't get rid of an EGR as NOx is nasty stuff. If you delete an EGR the engine will take longer to warm up which increases in cylinder deposits and they don't cause an increase in engine wear. They don't turn the oil black!
New diesel oil will turn black if the engine was designed in such a way that it has a significant amount of residual oil. Obviously if that oil was well used, it will turn the new oil black fairly quickly.
If my diesel oil turns black too quickly after an oil change, I just run an idle flush just before the next OCI, but try and avoid using any type of flush additive if you already have an oil leak issue, as it will increase the drip rate for a while due to the false oil seal effect.
Definitely do get rid of the EGR if possible. I've had two vehicles with EGR, a Unimog and a BMW X5, And on both of them the EGR has failed. Needless to say it is now gone. Getting rid of it actually lowers soot
emission out of the exhaust pipe but but does increase nitrogen oxides slightly. It increases engine longevity and reliability very significantly.
Originally Posted By: Koz1
Its the EGR if its instantly black.
If you dont have EGR then you run rich or have a ring issue.
Twaddle, If it's instantly black it's a combination of well used oil or even sludge and the residual oil factor. With some diesels it's normal, with others it will take a few hundred miles for the new oil to turn black and it also depends to a certain extent on the type of oil used in detergent content terms.
Its the EGR if its instantly black.
If you dont have EGR then you run rich or have a ring issue.
Twaddle, If it's instantly black it's a combination of well used oil or even sludge and the residual oil factor. With some diesels it's normal, with others it will take a few hundred miles for the new oil to turn black and it also depends to a certain extent on the type of oil used in detergent content terms.
Originally Posted By: m37charlie
Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
Originally Posted By: Koz1
Its called EGR, Get rid of it.
Don't get rid of an EGR as NOx is nasty stuff. If you delete an EGR the engine will take longer to warm up which increases in cylinder deposits and they don't cause an increase in engine wear. They don't turn the oil black!
New diesel oil will turn black if the engine was designed in such a way that it has a significant amount of residual oil. Obviously if that oil was well used, it will turn the new oil black fairly quickly.
If my diesel oil turns black too quickly after an oil change, I just run an idle flush just before the next OCI, but try and avoid using any type of flush additive if you already have an oil leak issue, as it will increase the drip rate for a while due to the false oil seal effect.
Definitely do get rid of the EGR if possible. I've had two vehicles with EGR, a Unimog and a BMW X5, And on both of them the EGR has failed. Needless to say
it is now gone. Getting rid of it actually lowers soot
emission out of the exhaust pipe but but does increase nitrogen oxides slightly. It increases engine longevity and reliability very significantly.
First of all deleting the EGR is classed as an engine modification and it can invalidate the insurance if not approved. In some countries tampering with the emissions control equipment is classed as a criminal act. If you live in a modern country that has an emissions control test, deleting the EGR can result in a failure due to wrong mixture at idle.
If you are a toxic air fan that deletes an EGR it's bad news unless the MAP is changed, the ECU will not be controlling the injection system correctly.
There is a tiny increase in Carbon contamination of the engine oil, BUT Carbon is a lubricant unless it starts to clump together enough to become a significant wear factor. That only happens if the detergent and dispersant additives in the oil run out because the OCI is too long and very few cars or trucks in the US are doing extended OCI's.
Most good EGR systems need to be cleaned along with the intake about every cam belt service interval if the engine is in good condition. With some engines that can be done with a spray in cleaner. If the block is worn and producing a lot of blowby or the engine has to suffer a lot of idle time or short tripping, the EGR might need cleaning every 50K km.
I have not cleaned my EGR for over 100K km because I'm lucky enough to spend about half my time in Germany and a few hours on the autobahn at max continuous RPM will burn it clean.
The EGR is one good idea, although I do not think the early model DPF's were, as they are expensive to replace and oils that have restricted anti wear levels do result in increased wear. Some manufacturers even figured out how to botch the DPF performance figures!
Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
Originally Posted By: Koz1
Its called EGR, Get rid of it.
Don't get rid of an EGR as NOx is nasty stuff. If you delete an EGR the engine will take longer to warm up which increases in cylinder deposits and they don't cause an increase in engine wear. They don't turn the oil black!
New diesel oil will turn black if the engine was designed in such a way that it has a significant amount of residual oil. Obviously if that oil was well used, it will turn the new oil black fairly quickly.
If my diesel oil turns black too quickly after an oil change, I just run an idle flush just before the next OCI, but try and avoid using any type of flush additive if you already have an oil leak issue, as it will increase the drip rate for a while due to the false oil seal effect.
Definitely do get rid of the EGR if possible. I've had two vehicles with EGR, a Unimog and a BMW X5, And on both of them the EGR has failed. Needless to say
it is now gone. Getting rid of it actually lowers soot
emission out of the exhaust pipe but but does increase nitrogen oxides slightly. It increases engine longevity and reliability very significantly.
First of all deleting the EGR is classed as an engine modification and it can invalidate the insurance if not approved. In some countries tampering with the emissions control equipment is classed as a criminal act. If you live in a modern country that has an emissions control test, deleting the EGR can result in a failure due to wrong mixture at idle.
If you are a toxic air fan that deletes an EGR it's bad news unless the MAP is changed, the ECU will not be controlling the injection system correctly.
There is a tiny increase in Carbon contamination of the engine oil, BUT Carbon is a lubricant unless it starts to clump together enough to become a significant wear factor. That only happens if the detergent and dispersant additives in the oil run out because the OCI is too long and very few cars or trucks in the US are doing extended OCI's.
Most good EGR systems need to be cleaned along with the intake about every cam belt service interval if the engine is in good condition. With some engines that can be done with a spray in cleaner. If the block is worn and producing a lot of blowby or the engine has to suffer a lot of idle time or short tripping, the EGR might need cleaning every 50K km.
I have not cleaned my EGR for over 100K km because I'm lucky enough to spend about half my time in Germany and a few hours on the autobahn at max continuous RPM will burn it clean.
The EGR is one good idea, although I do not think the early model DPF's were, as they are expensive to replace and oils that have restricted anti wear levels do result in increased wear. Some manufacturers even figured out how to botch the DPF performance figures!
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EGR also reduce combustion chamber temperatures which is a VERY good thing for remapped engines. I'm guilty of removing egr in the past, but would hesitate to do it today.
EGR is one of those stupid EPA-inspired pollution control measures with a high cost vs. benefit.
Benefit: Slightly reduced Nox emission
Cost: Higher maintenance requirement
Increased maintenance complexity
Reduced longevity (overall, and numerous single engine parts)
Reduced performance (including long-term fouling)
Reduced reliability (related to previous items)
This is all well and good for the greenies and people who buy new vehicles every year or two. It sucks for manufacturers designing unnecessarily complex emissions control systems and people who have to live with them long term.
Benefit: Slightly reduced Nox emission
Cost: Higher maintenance requirement
Increased maintenance complexity
Reduced longevity (overall, and numerous single engine parts)
Reduced performance (including long-term fouling)
Reduced reliability (related to previous items)
This is all well and good for the greenies and people who buy new vehicles every year or two. It sucks for manufacturers designing unnecessarily complex emissions control systems and people who have to live with them long term.
Originally Posted By: Uber_Archetype
EGR is one of those stupid EPA-inspired pollution control measures with a high cost vs. benefit.
Benefit: Slightly reduced Nox emission
Cost: Higher maintenance requirement
Increased maintenance complexity
Reduced longevity (overall, and numerous single engine parts)
Reduced performance (including long-term fouling)
Reduced reliability (related to previous items)
This is all well and good for the greenies and people who buy new vehicles every year or two. It sucks for manufacturers designing unnecessarily complex emissions control systems and people who have to live with them long term.
The maintenance requirement for an EGR equates to around 30 mins labour about every 50 to 100K km, one small can of carb cleaner and a gasket. That is a fraction of the cost of something like a full cam belt service and is a much less complicated procedure.
An EGR only causes a small increase in the soot loading of the oil and as long as the oil is changed at a sensible interval, which is normally the max recommended figure quoted by the manufacturer for normal service, or half that for severe service use, the extra soot loading will make no difference in engine wear terms.
Oddly enough I've never seen a UOA result where the insolubles figure or TBN was out of limits for a normal OCI that was not caused by a HG leak, oil filter failure or use of the wrong type of oil.
Early model DPF systems did cause UOA results that were often a horror story due to fuel contamination, but even a bad DPF does not cause increased wear IF the oil is changed often enough, although nothing can be done about increased wear from the restricted Zinc based anti wear additives, unless you use expensive oil additives like Ceratec.
There is no change in the performance of the engine unless the EGR is allowed to block up because it has not been cleaned.
If you are interested in engine life expectancy, whilst it is important to use a good oil and filter, it is even more important to change the oil at a sensible interval and the best way to find that out is to get a few UOA's done. That way you will not suffer any ill effects from a DPF system, faulty air filter, gummed or damaged injectors and most important of all, a leaking HG (Head Gasket).
EGR is one of those stupid EPA-inspired pollution control measures with a high cost vs. benefit.
Benefit: Slightly reduced Nox emission
Cost: Higher maintenance requirement
Increased maintenance complexity
Reduced longevity (overall, and numerous single engine parts)
Reduced performance (including long-term fouling)
Reduced reliability (related to previous items)
This is all well and good for the greenies and people who buy new vehicles every year or two. It sucks for manufacturers designing unnecessarily complex emissions control systems and people who have to live with them long term.
The maintenance requirement for an EGR equates to around 30 mins labour about every 50 to 100K km, one small can of carb cleaner and a gasket. That is a fraction of the cost of something like a full cam belt service and is a much less complicated procedure.
An EGR only causes a small increase in the soot loading of the oil and as long as the oil is changed at a sensible interval, which is normally the max recommended figure quoted by the manufacturer for normal service, or half that for severe service use, the extra soot loading will make no difference in engine wear terms.
Oddly enough I've never seen a UOA result where the insolubles figure or TBN was out of limits for a normal OCI that was not caused by a HG leak, oil filter failure or use of the wrong type of oil.
Early model DPF systems did cause UOA results that were often a horror story due to fuel contamination, but even a bad DPF does not cause increased wear IF the oil is changed often enough, although nothing can be done about increased wear from the restricted Zinc based anti wear additives, unless you use expensive oil additives like Ceratec.
There is no change in the performance of the engine unless the EGR is allowed to block up because it has not been cleaned.
If you are interested in engine life expectancy, whilst it is important to use a good oil and filter, it is even more important to change the oil at a sensible interval and the best way to find that out is to get a few UOA's done. That way you will not suffer any ill effects from a DPF system, faulty air filter, gummed or damaged injectors and most important of all, a leaking HG (Head Gasket).
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UltrafanUK;
You hit the nail on the head a couple of posts ago... "short tripping".
Add to that, 400 HP light truck Diesel engines that never get a proper work-out, but spend their entire lives as over-grown grocery getters.
In NA, a pick-up truck Diesel option is around $10K, more often than not, hard to justify.
You hit the nail on the head a couple of posts ago... "short tripping".
Add to that, 400 HP light truck Diesel engines that never get a proper work-out, but spend their entire lives as over-grown grocery getters.
In NA, a pick-up truck Diesel option is around $10K, more often than not, hard to justify.
Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
First of all deleting the EGR is classed as an engine modification and it can invalidate the insurance if not approved.
Obviously, that depends upon one's location. Here, you could run a sign on the side of your vehicle that you yanked the EGR, and no one would care, from insurance personnel to enforcement personnel to the OEM, in all likelihood. There are legal and thriving businesses here that delete that emissions stuff on diesels.
First of all deleting the EGR is classed as an engine modification and it can invalidate the insurance if not approved.
Obviously, that depends upon one's location. Here, you could run a sign on the side of your vehicle that you yanked the EGR, and no one would care, from insurance personnel to enforcement personnel to the OEM, in all likelihood. There are legal and thriving businesses here that delete that emissions stuff on diesels.
Baha, I saw that on YouTube. Regina shop doing a big business removing DPFs. Next up was tards rolling coal on Prius, cyclists and little old ladies
Surprisingly, there isn't too much rolling coal here. It does happen, but not as much as one would expect. Here, with no emissions testing and no enforcement outside of perhaps a by-the-book dealer, there is little risk at getting rid of the stuff, if someone is interested in doing so.
The EGR can be "deleted", the better term is "made inoperative", via ECM coding. Kennedy Diesel and many others use EFI Live tuning to just code out the EGR. EGR is ECM controlled. No codes thrown. One can then recode it back in if needed for a warranty concern if going to dealer. Unless a specific visit to the dealer for a problem like this, chances are very good that dealer wouldn't even know. I have done it this way from Jeep Liberty diesels on up thru Cummins ISX 15L engines. The best approach to getting EGR out of there, and no turning of any wrenches and such. Took that Cummins ISX to almost one million miles before selling it and getting my present truck. The truck it was in passed me about a year later on my way to Indianapolis. Talked with driver, still same motor with no major repairs. I sold the truck to get one that better met my operational needs.
Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
The maintenance requirement for an EGR equates to around 30 mins labour about every 50 to 100K...
Get a quote from your dealer or local indy shop. And it varies by vehicle - quite a bit, actually - for something that should not be required AT ALL. The cost for REPAIRING a gunked-up intake on some vehicles can run into the thousands of dollars.
Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
An EGR only causes a small increase in the soot loading of the oil and as long as the oil is changed at a sensible interval...
Once again, a non-specific, basically useless comment. Soot-loading is not an issue, EGR or not.
Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
.. based anti wear additives, unless you use expensive oil additives like Ceratec.
So... what's your point? EGR is not a lube OR oil-related issue.
Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
There is no change in the performance of the engine unless...
Uh, wrong again buddy. Track the MPG on a car with the intake tract slowly narrowing over thousands of miles and years. You don't notice it unless you actually ARE tracking it, or until a CEL illuminates because of about a half dozen other potentially related failures starting to come into play.
Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
If you are interested in engine life expectancy, whilst it is important to use a good oil and filter...
Again, it's not about lube. It's about the millions of vehicles that get junked every year because people are fed up with the maintenance hassles, a good portion of which are emission-related SNAFU's.
The maintenance requirement for an EGR equates to around 30 mins labour about every 50 to 100K...
Get a quote from your dealer or local indy shop. And it varies by vehicle - quite a bit, actually - for something that should not be required AT ALL. The cost for REPAIRING a gunked-up intake on some vehicles can run into the thousands of dollars.
Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
An EGR only causes a small increase in the soot loading of the oil and as long as the oil is changed at a sensible interval...
Once again, a non-specific, basically useless comment. Soot-loading is not an issue, EGR or not.
Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
.. based anti wear additives, unless you use expensive oil additives like Ceratec.
So... what's your point? EGR is not a lube OR oil-related issue.
Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
There is no change in the performance of the engine unless...
Uh, wrong again buddy. Track the MPG on a car with the intake tract slowly narrowing over thousands of miles and years. You don't notice it unless you actually ARE tracking it, or until a CEL illuminates because of about a half dozen other potentially related failures starting to come into play.
Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
If you are interested in engine life expectancy, whilst it is important to use a good oil and filter...
Again, it's not about lube. It's about the millions of vehicles that get junked every year because people are fed up with the maintenance hassles, a good portion of which are emission-related SNAFU's.
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