Ghost Gunner

[Shannow]

That's why the transaction tax is the tax that should be being pursued across the board.

Get you pay direct deposited...transaction tax.
Take your money out the ATM...transaction tax
Pay a bill transaction tax

All auto syphoned off.

And it's miniscule

because BIG business moves from A to B, to corporate entity X, Y, and Z..to tax have P, and back from Q for operating capital.

 

[hatt]

A lot of whining about a few folks buying specialty products and enjoying them. Some people enjoy finishing their own stuff. So people like to buy what's out there. Criminals aren't buying and using 80% lowers. If they were you'd see all the stories.

 

[billt460]

It's not so much "whining", as it is a sensible discussion about what, if any, advantage there are to these things. I get the whole part about, "buying specialty products", along with the whole bit about, "Making your own AR-15", and all of that. I'm just not seeing any sense of doing it, and in the process create something expensive that you can never legally sell. What's the point?

You can custom build your own AR-15 from a complete stripped lower, and showcase your skills at the same time. And when you're done you'll have a nice weapon that can be sold if you choose. Doing it with 80% finished receiver ties you to that gun forever. You're giving up the money for eternity, just to have something you think is untraceable, but it's really not. Just not seeing anything advantageous here. But as always, whatever floats your boat. It's a free country.... At least for now.

And let's be honest. The guys who are doing this are doing so because they're intrigued about the idea of having a weapon that can never be traced to them. They're only fooling themselves. They're not doing it to, "showcase their skills".

 

[billt460]

Just to give some idea about, "who knows what you buy". Some weeks back I purchased a couple of new toilets from Home Depot, in the process of remodeling both of my bathrooms. I simply walked in and bought them with cash. Put them in my truck, and drove home. I did not buy them on line. For the next 2 weeks all I saw were pop ups on my computer for everything from A to Z, involving bathroom remodeling. And from everyone under the Sun. Not just Home Depot.

When you purchase anything from Cabela's, and many other places, the first thing they ask for is your phone number. Once they have it, everything you purchase is recorded straight to your account. From guns to socks to fishing lures. They'll know the climate you went hunting in, or the fish you went fishing for. And the brand of beef jerky you ate while you were doing it.

Personal buying habits are pumped automatically through cyberspace all but instantaneously. This is the price we pay for having all this high end technology, and "smart" everything from TV's to phones. Television production companies used to pay A.C. Neilson for information regarding what people were watching. Along with establishing T.V. ratings. Now because of "Smart TV's" and cable companies, it's automatically given to them in real time. Directly through the Internet.

The first thing police confiscate when a crime has been committed is the persons computer and smart phone. Their whole history is on it. And there is no way around it. There is nothing they can't get into. The FBI has proven that with the San Bernardino killers..... And they did it without Apple's help. 80% lowers may be a lot of things. But one thing they're NOT is "untraceable".

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: billt460
It's not so much "whining", as it is a sensible discussion about what, if any, advantage there are to these things. I get the whole part about, "buying specialty products", along with the whole bit about, "Making your own AR-15", and all of that. I'm just not seeing any sense of doing it, and in the process create something expensive that you can never legally sell. What's the point?

You can custom build your own AR-15 from a complete stripped lower, and showcase your skills at the same time. And when you're done you'll have a nice weapon that can be sold if you choose. Doing it with 80% finished receiver ties you to that gun forever. You're giving up the money for eternity, just to have something you think is untraceable, but it's really not. Just not seeing anything advantageous here. But as always, whatever floats your boat. It's a free country.... At least for now.

And let's be honest. The guys who are doing this are doing so because they're intrigued about the idea of having a weapon that can never be traced to them. They're only fooling themselves. They're not doing it to, "showcase their skills".
Not sure why you're so fixated on reasons other people do stuff. Do you endlessly go on every time you see someone make a useless mod to a vehicle?

The resell value argument also doesn't make any sense. Any home built AR is pretty much only worth the parts value. So what if the final gun is worth slightly less. You're not hacking up a $5,000 collector piece. If losing $100-200 is going to affect your long term financial well being you shouldn't be fooling with guns anyway. Home built guns are a novelty, a hobby. Worrying about a couple $$$ in value, maybe, down the road, with something that costs $.25+ a trigger pull is senseless. If you want resale value you buy high quality factory/custom builder guns. But you know that.

You can also sell your homemade lower. Not sure where you're getting your info.

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Just to give some idea about, "who knows what you buy". Some weeks back I purchased a couple of new toilets from Home Depot, in the process of remodeling both of my bathrooms. I simply walked in and bought them with cash. Put them in my truck, and drove home. I did not buy them on line. For the next 2 weeks all I saw were pop ups on my computer for everything from A to Z, involving bathroom remodeling. And from everyone under the Sun. Not just Home Depot.

When you purchase anything from Cabela's, and many other places, the first thing they ask for is your phone number. Once they have it, everything you purchase is recorded straight to your account. From guns to socks to fishing lures. They'll know the climate you went hunting in, or the fish you went fishing for. And the brand of beef jerky you ate while you were doing it.

Personal buying habits are pumped automatically through cyberspace all but instantaneously. This is the price we pay for having all this high end technology, and "smart" everything from TV's to phones. Television production companies used to pay A.C. Neilson for information regarding what people were watching. Along with establishing T.V. ratings. Now because of "Smart TV's" and cable companies, it's automatically given to them in real time. Directly through the Internet.

The first thing police confiscate when a crime has been committed is the persons computer and smart phone. Their whole history is on it. And there is no way around it. There is nothing they can't get into. The FBI has proven that with the San Bernardino killers..... And they did it without Apple's help. 80% lowers may be a lot of things. But one thing they're NOT is "untraceable".
You received targeted ads because you searched for the items. You also give out personal information to retailers. Of course you're going to be tracked.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: hatt
You can also sell your homemade lower.


Not if it's a non serialized 80% lower. Are you getting any of this?

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: hatt
You can also sell your homemade lower.


Not if it's non serialized 80% lower.
And that takes how long to mark 001 with an engraver?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Well, in my case if I ever sell anything I'd most likely transfer the firearm to the next guy ... then they would know I don't own it anymore.


And just how would you go about doing that? There are no "Transfer Forms", or "Certificate Of Title", like a motor vehicle which is licensed.


Sure there are forms for private sale and transfer of ownership of firearms, at least in WA. I'm betting most states operate this way.

http://www.dol.wa.gov/forms/652001.pdf

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Sure there are forms for private sale and transfer of ownership of firearms, at least in WA. I'm betting most states operate this way.


I've been into owning and shooting firearms for over 45 years. And I've never even seen one of those, let alone know anyone who has ever filled one out. I've never heard it discussed. This is the first. Washington huh? Never set foot in the state. That's probably why.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: hatt
And that takes how long to mark 001 with an engraver?


Yeah, and I'm sure the ATF has NEVER seen that one tried before.

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: hatt
And that takes how long to mark 001 with an engraver?


Yeah, and I'm sure the ATF has NEVER seen that one tried before.
Please explain what you're talking about? ATF wants a serial number for gun to be sold by the maker. You add serial number before you sell. Seems pretty easy.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Well, in my case if I ever sell anything I'd most likely transfer the firearm to the next guy ... then they would know I don't own it anymore.


And just how would you go about doing that? There are no "Transfer Forms", or "Certificate Of Title", like a motor vehicle which is licensed.


Sure there are forms for private sale and transfer of ownership of firearms, at least in WA. I'm betting most states operate this way.

http://www.dol.wa.gov/forms/652001.pdf


You would lose that bet.

Most states recommend that you keep a bill of sale.

But registration of the sale is not a law in most states.

CT and CO now require state approval (via licensed dealer and background check) of transfers between private parties. Oregon just adopted the same, as did WA. CA has had the requirement for a while. In those 5 states, the dealer must keep a record of the transaction.

Now, doing some digging: DE requires a background check on the buyer. Illinois requires the dealer and FOID to transfer. Iowa requires a permit on the part of a purchaser. Maryland requires a dealer. It's prohibited in MA, where it's a dealer-only transaction. NE requires that the buyer have a concealed carry or firearm permit, but the transaction isn't registered or recorded by the state. NJ requires a permit to purchase for a private sale. NY requires notification of the State Police for certain weapons (handguns, shotguns, "assault rifles"). NC requires that a pistol purchaser have a handgun permit to purchase. But that excludes rifles and the state isn't tracking the transfer. Similarly, PA excludes long guns, and transfers between family members. RI requires a background check, unless the purchaser has a concealed carry permit. That's 8 states with restrictions, but the transaction may, or may not, not be recorded for the State.

In all cases, it is a Federal Felony to knowingly transfer a firearm to a "prohibited person", i.e. a person who is currently prohibited from owning a firearm.

In the remaining 37 states, there are no requirements to check or record the transaction, so, NO, "Most states" don't work the way that yours does...in fact, only 4 others do...

I should have taken your bet. It was easy money.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: hatt
Please explain what you're talking about? ATF wants a serial number for gun to be sold by the maker. You add serial number before you sell. Seems pretty easy.


You can't simply stamp some B.S. serial number on a 80% lower you've finished, then sell it off. If you are building a firearm or firearms for sale, you must be a Licensed Manufacturer. If you actually plan on doing this, it would be wise for you to consult a firearms attorney before you wind up in Leavenworth.

"Any person (including any corporation or other legal entity) engaged in the business of performing machining, molding, casting, forging, printing (additive manufacturing) or other manufacturing process to create a firearm frame or receiver, or to make a frame or receiver suitable for use as part of a “weapon … which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive,” i.e., a “firearm,” must be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act of 1968."

https://www.atf.gov/file/11711/download

 

[hatt]

Quote:
...engaged in the business...
You missed that part. You also can't buy a pallet of stripped lowers and turn them into complete guns to sell. You can assemble them for personal use. If down the road you get tired of it you can sell.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: billt460
It's not so much "whining", as it is a sensible discussion about what, if any, advantage there are to these things.
Not sure why you're so fixated on reasons other people do stuff. Do you endlessly go on every time you see someone make a useless mod to a vehicle?


LOL, it's America...300M people doing "stuff" because they want to and can...and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

I can make a slingshot with my son, but if it's too "good" i.e. too far removed from a "toy", it's the same fine/jail sentence as if they found an AR in my possession... or a flack jacket.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Sure there are forms for private sale and transfer of ownership of firearms, at least in WA. I'm betting most states operate this way.


I've been into owning and shooting firearms for over 45 years. And I've never even seen one of those, let alone know anyone who has ever filled one out. I've never heard it discussed. This is the first. Washington huh? Never set foot in the state. That's probably why.


I bet your state has something similar ... you just haven't researched it like 99.9999% of people who own guns. And I'm sure 99.9999% don't fill it out if they do sell a firearm. I would though because why should I still be associated with a firearm I no longer own.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: hatt
Quote:
...engaged in the business...
You missed that part. You also can't buy a pallet of stripped lowers and turn them into complete guns to sell. You can assemble them for personal use. If down the road you get tired of it you can sell.


When you sell a gun you manufactured for profit you are, "engaged in business". Look, I don't care what you do or don't do. You can build a rifle from a 80% lower for your own use. It is perfectly legal to do so. You CANNOT build a gun on a 80% lower that is non serialized and sell it... Nor can you stamp a B.S. "serial number" on it, in some half baked attempt to make it legit to sell. That is engaging in firearms manufacturing without a license. That is illegal.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
I bet your state has something similar ...


You really need to stop making losing bets. Didn't you learn your lesson with Astro? Arizona requires no such "forms". As he pointed out, only 4 states do. He told you which ones they were.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
I bet your state has something similar ...


You really need to stop making losing bets. Didn't you learn your lesson with Astro? Arizona requires no such "forms". As he pointed out, only 4 states do. He told you which ones they were.


I didn't see his post until after I replied to you. But guess you learned something new anyway. I don't keep track of ever gun law in other states ... hard enough for the one I live in. Don't be surprised if more states adopt similar laws as time goes on.