'13 KTM Duke 690 Amsoil Synth Dirt Bike Oil 10w60

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted By: MotoTribologist
Originally Posted By: alarmguy

If a 10W-60 shears out of the SAE 60 grade, it does not meet the JASO specifications it claims to meet. Some of the grades have some leeway, but above an SAE 50, they need to stay in grade.

If they were planning on SAE 30 or 40s to be used, they would specify those grades; since again, the specifications do not allow that much shear to occur.

By that logic, manufacturers that specify 10W-30 are really planning on the bike running on SAE 16? The idea is for an oil to have as little shear as possible. Shearing potential is not engineered into an oil in order to end up with a different grade.


I dont disagree on paper with your thinking however the facts will never pan out.

Ill go out on the line and say you will never find a 10/60 that will not shear out of grade in a shared sump engine. There is no question in my mind manufacturers take shearing into account, and if they do not, it doesnt matter anyway, why?

Because all shared sump engines shear oil out of grade, some worse then others, but they all shear the oil. Its common knowledge in all the UOAs posted on this very forum.
You will find, every time, the oils with the largest spread ex, 10/60, 5/40, 10/40 oils (in that order) will ALWAYS shear faster then a 20/50, 20/40. 10/30.

I dont care what Jaso states or anything else happening in a lab, the above results are right under motorcycle UOAs in this forum. You will also find in the UOAs that many conventional oils hold up or shear less then exotic expensive synthetics and synthetics in general.
Its not what the oil is made of, its the spread between the high and low on the bottle. 5/40,10/40,20/50.
Its all in the UOA section of BITOG. Nothing in the world would convince me the maker of the bike doesnt understand this concept because it happens in EVERY shared sump and it does not matter the cost of the oil or type of oil, syn vs conv. Its the spread between the numbers.

Bottom line, all is good if your following the owners manual recommendations for what viscosity's, THEN if your into this, research and find the best one to stay in grade and work best for you.

 

[alarmguy]

Yes, I can also buy Valvoline anytime at my local Walmart for $4 a quart, 20/50 4 stroke motorcycle oil, they also carry the syn. This is a big super center though, not all Walmarts have a motorcycle section like this one.
It can be bought online though, good price for the autoparts store.

 

[Mackelroy]

Yeah , my local walmart only carries the $8.74 Syn Valvoline, No dino mc 20w50. But really they are really close on specs, Ive ran them both, and my nose says on top of the numbers not a Huge difference, both seem to be Group 3 Hydrocracks.

 

[WANG]

Originally Posted By: MotoTribologist

If a 10W-60 shears out of the SAE 60 grade, it does not meet the JASO specifications it claims to meet. Some of the grades have some leeway, but above an SAE 50, they need to stay in grade.


"Staying in grade" in the context of the JASO spec in question means staying in grade after undergoing ASTM D6278. ASTM D6278 is a standardized test to compare relative characteristics of different fluids. It does not mean "Stays in grade after any miles in any motorcycle". Absolutely possible, and likely, that any >50 grade fluid that meets the JASO spec in D6278 will shear to some extent in field use.

 

[albertdi]

Sweet Ambrosia! I will write them a letter...

 

[albertdi]

Originally Posted By: alarmguy
Originally Posted By: Mackelroy
A lot of metal for a 1000 miles on a street motor,Unless you want to do thousand mile intervals.

Maybe you need to get away from synthetics and run a 20w50 dino oil , like a Valvoline 20w50.

Does well in my 500 ktm, and you may see better wear metals, as I do in comparison.

...

But that 10w60 doesn't seem to be doing that great imo


I agree, I think he would do better with conventional Valvoline 20w50 4 stroke motorcycle oil. Im a fan of that oil, I think way underrated, maybe people would think more highly of it it Valvoline increased the price to $10.00 a quart instead of $4.00 a quart in Walmart )

I would love to see those results of the Valvoline $4 oil ($5 in autoparts stores) against these expensive oils, that for some reason, turn up with issues like this thread.


I will add it to the list!

 

[SuperSalad]

Originally Posted By: WANG
Originally Posted By: MotoTribologist

If a 10W-60 shears out of the SAE 60 grade, it does not meet the JASO specifications it claims to meet. Some of the grades have some leeway, but above an SAE 50, they need to stay in grade.


"Staying in grade" in the context of the JASO spec in question means staying in grade after undergoing ASTM D6278. ASTM D6278 is a standardized test to compare relative characteristics of different fluids. It does not mean "Stays in grade after any miles in any motorcycle". Absolutely possible, and likely, that any >50 grade fluid that meets the JASO spec in D6278 will shear to some extent in field use.


That is very true, that the test is certainly not a perfect simulation of transmission shear.

However, alarmguy's comment that no 60 weight will stay in grade and that all oils will shear is just not true. There are plenty of shear stable oils and I have seen many that exhibit very little and some that show zero shear after some heavy duty riding. I've also seen the opposite, so I'm not saying that oil's don't shear, but they can't all be painted with broad strokes just based only on their SAE grade.

 

[albertdi]

Originally Posted By: CT8
Call Amsoil and give them heck about their Poor quality oil.I would be fun to hear the excuses since Amsoil seems to think their oils are nectar from heaven.


Here is the response from amsoil:

"We took a look at your results and they look pretty consistent. The shared sump is tough on oil. The meshing of the gears tends to increase shear. Any oil that has a large split on viscosity tends to be susceptible to shear as well. A motorcycle with a shared sump combined with an oil recommendation that , by its very design, has a tendency to shear creates the results that you’re seeing here. When we designed the Dirt Bike 10w-60 we used the OEM oil as a baseline. We use very high end technology in all viscosities of AMSOIL dirt bike oil. It appears the shearing is taking place quickly then the viscosity holds through the drain interval. This doesn’t seem to be causing any problems since your wear metals are very low. Are you experiencing any problems with the bike that you suspect may be oil related?"

 

[Bandito440]

I haven't been keeping up with your posts, but did see this UOA. How's the shifting? Does it degrade near the end of your OCI? How does it compare to the Amsoil 60?

 

[albertdi]

Originally Posted By: Bandito440
I haven't been keeping up with your posts, but did see this UOA. How's the shifting? Does it degrade near the end of your OCI? How does it compare to the Amsoil 60?


I don't notice any difference in the shifting. Some of the issues I reported elsewhere with false neutrals between 1st and 2nd and between 5th and 6th have improved. I attribute this to break-in of the spring on the shifter. Other duke 690 riders corroborate these findings and, the fact that factory pro makes a replacement spring to fix these problems gives me reassurance that my shift issues are related to the spring mechanism. I'd say I experience one of these shifts issues once/month now which I can leave with.

In one to two months I will run the amsoil 60 again and it'll be interesting to see how the shift issues manifest. I think I mentioned this back in the other post but, for those who are just turning in, I experienced an increase in shift problems while running the amsoil 60.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: alarmguy
Originally Posted By: MotoTribologist
Originally Posted By: alarmguy

If a 10W-60 shears out of the SAE 60 grade, it does not meet the JASO specifications it claims to meet. Some of the grades have some leeway, but above an SAE 50, they need to stay in grade.

If they were planning on SAE 30 or 40s to be used, they would specify those grades; since again, the specifications do not allow that much shear to occur.

By that logic, manufacturers that specify 10W-30 are really planning on the bike running on SAE 16? The idea is for an oil to have as little shear as possible. Shearing potential is not engineered into an oil in order to end up with a different grade.


I dont disagree on paper with your thinking however the facts will never pan out.

Ill go out on the line and say you will never find a 10/60 that will not shear out of grade in a shared sump engine. There is no question in my mind manufacturers take shearing into account, and if they do not, it doesnt matter anyway, why?

Because all shared sump engines shear oil out of grade, some worse then others, but they all shear the oil. Its common knowledge in all the UOAs posted on this very forum.
You will find, every time, the oils with the largest spread ex, 10/60, 5/40, 10/40 oils (in that order) will ALWAYS shear faster then a 20/50, 20/40. 10/30.


They have to stay in grade in the standardised test regime...which doesn't mean that they can't end up out of grade in the field.

 

[albertdi]

Originally Posted By: alarmguy
Originally Posted By: Mackelroy
A lot of metal for a 1000 miles on a street motor,Unless you want to do thousand mile intervals.

Maybe you need to get away from synthetics and run a 20w50 dino oil , like a Valvoline 20w50.

Does well in my 500 ktm, and you may see better wear metals, as I do in comparison.

...

But that 10w60 doesn't seem to be doing that great imo


I agree, I think he would do better with conventional Valvoline 20w50 4 stroke motorcycle oil. Im a fan of that oil, I think way underrated, maybe people would think more highly of it it Valvoline increased the price to $10.00 a quart instead of $4.00 a quart in Walmart )

I would love to see those results of the Valvoline $4 oil ($5 in autoparts stores) against these expensive oils, that for some reason, turn up with issues like this thread.


Scored some valvoline 20w50 at the autozone today for $3.99/quart. I will give this a 1,000 miles run and then send off a sample.

I'm still waiting on a report on the redline 20w60. I also want to try a 4k run of the amsoil 60w to see what wear looks like.

I have some maxima 10w-60 which I'd like to try at some point just for comparison, though I've lost faith in the 10w-60s.

any other straight 60s I should try to compare against the amsoil?