High ZDDP oils in newer cars that do NOT use oil

[Dad2leia]

And lastly, another question posed to the oil gurus here in recent days. I realize that emmision systems these days are very sensitive to high zinc oils. However, how much real harm can come to the cat and sensors if the car doesn't use any oil (visible on dipstick) between OCI's?

I ask this be ause I have some leftover higher zinc stuff that I was debating about using.

Fire away everyone please!

 

[HerrStig]

What's an "energy conserving" SN oil have for ZDDP these days...800 PPM? I agree that if the oil doesn't get by the rings, and the valve guides and seals are tight, there may not be much getting into the exhaust system. Are the new "low tension" rings a problem? Who knows.

 

[Dad2leia]

I have some left over Brad Penn Grade 1 0w30, which isn't SN energy conserving, and averages 1500 ppm is why I ask.

 

[A_Harman]

If your engine doesn't burn oil, it won't be sending any Phosphorous out to poison the cat. I've always regarded the high-zddp thing as more of a statistical issue with EPA administrators than a pervasive real-world problem.

"Yeah, OK Mr. Admin, you have statistically shown that 1 cat out of 10,000 will be poisoned by the Phosphorous coming from the engine oil, and that will make that car emit more pollutants than is allowed by your regulations after 120,000 miles. But can you actually prove any degradation in air quality because of it?"

 

[pbm]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
If your engine doesn't burn oil, it won't be sending any Phosphorous out to poison the cat. I've always regarded the high-zddp thing as more of a statistical issue with EPA administrators than a pervasive real-world problem.

"Yeah, OK Mr. Admin, you have statistically shown that 1 cat out of 10,000 will be poisoned by the Phosphorous coming from the engine oil, and that will make that car emit more pollutants than is allowed by your regulations after 120,000 miles. But can you actually prove any degradation in air quality because of it?"




I agree.
Besides a couple of OCI's with the oil in question (which I assume is SL rated?....or is it SM?) would have little effect over the life of the vehicle if it's not using oil.

After all CCs have been around since SG or SF was the rating and there hasn't been widespread problems.

 

[Dad2leia]

That was my feeling too, but validation does help, especially with what I have been reading about higher zinc oils with GDI engines. I do run cleaners from time to time for just that reason.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
If your engine doesn't burn oil, it won't be sending any Phosphorous out to poison the cat. I've always regarded the high-zddp thing as more of a statistical issue with EPA administrators than a pervasive real-world problem.



I think that's exactly what it is.

Granted, there is some evidence that very small amounts of some additives in "non oil-burning" engines can cause problems (the strongly indicated link between calcium-based additives and LSPI in turbo DI engines, for example), I don't think zinc/phosphorous is drastically reducing the effectiveness of catalysts in otherwise healthy engines.

But the EPA requirements on manufacturers do have to leave enough room for degradation at high mileage, so in some ways they have to over-spec things like limits on additive levels.

 

[BrocLuno]

So look, do what racers have done for decades - blend. Pick your regular oil and add 1 qt of Brad Penn. The uptick in ZDDP (the P part is the bad one) will not be significant. You'll use up your oil, the car will be happy and so will the EPA

 

[JimBob]

Originally Posted By: Dad2leia
I have some left over Brad Penn Grade 1 0w30, which isn't SN energy conserving, and averages 1500 ppm is why I ask.


I might be concerned about a different issue... 1500ppm? How old is that oil? Is it past a reasonable shelf life? I know there's a lot of debate about whether shelf life is real... but at some point, I think reasonable men decide oil is too old to risk in engines worth significant money to rebuild (In my lawn mower... not so much

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: JimBob
Originally Posted By: Dad2leia
I have some left over Brad Penn Grade 1 0w30, which isn't SN energy conserving, and averages 1500 ppm is why I ask.


I might be concerned about a different issue... 1500ppm? How old is that oil? Is it past a reasonable shelf life? I know there's a lot of debate about whether shelf life is real... but at some point, I think reasonable men decide oil is too old to risk in engines worth significant money to rebuild (In my lawn mower... not so much


Don't fret about the age of the Brad Penn high-zddp oil. They make high-zddp oils every day. It's their reason for existence, marketing to guys with old flat-tappet engines.

 

[901Memphis]

I'd blend it in if you don't have a lawnmower.... It would be a great lawnmower oil though

 

[SR5]

Yeah I always believed that a car burning 1Qt per 2000mi of low Zinc SN oil was sending more Phos to that cat than a car that needs no top up in 6000mi using a high Zn oil.

The rules make sense averaged over a large number of cars, but may make less sense when applied to a individual example.

 

[alcyon]

Just to clarify, the insides of my car's exhaust pipe is loaded with black layer ,what exactly is that ? I use full SAPS oil.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: alcyon
Just to clarify, the insides of my car's exhaust pipe is loaded with black layer ,what exactly is that ? I use full SAPS oil.


If you car is running a little rich, which they often are from the factory, then I suspect a build up of soot (carbon).

 

[alcyon]

Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: alcyon
Just to clarify, the insides of my car's exhaust pipe is loaded with black layer ,what exactly is that ? I use full SAPS oil.


If you car is running a little rich, which they often are from the factory, then I suspect a build up of soot (carbon).


Thanks, I was wondering perhaps if this is the phosphorous and zinc burnt out of the engine. Hardly notice any oil loss, and there is no soot smudge on the rear bodywork, I have seen plenty of the same car with the soot smudge on the rear bumper. My car has no CAT.

 

[circuitsmith]

Soot on the bumper usually indicates significant oil burning.