Considering a new Lexus ES - Durability?

[David_Corbett]

Hey there BITOG folks.

My current vehicle is an Accord Touring V6 - 2013. It's a great car, but there's enough lack of refinement in it (road and wind noise, rough suspension, mediocre sound system, sloppy, slow, rough and confused transmission, engine crippled by a VCM system that returns excellent mileage but leaves the car less responsive than my old '05 Accord V6) that it's starting to grate on me and I want something a little bit more relaxing so I can unwind on my commute in safety and comfort.

I'm considering buying a new Lexus ES350 sedan. As far as I can tell, it's got a decent reputation for reliability. The Avalon and ES both do very well on durability ratings. Lexus is a perennial reliability champ with JD Power and Consumer Reports. The engine has been in use for 12 years on a huge variety of models, the transmission for 10 in similarly prolific fashion, and the transmission/engine combo have been working together on Toyotas since model year 2007.

The whole thing seems immensely conservative in engineering, which isn't going to win comparison tests but should keep on rolling on and on like some sort of automotive cockroach. Or so I think.

Reliability is important to me. I am probably not unique on this website in that I am a somewhat anxious fellow and I do not like it when things do not work as they should - that's one of the main reasons I'm looking at this car in the first place. I want to make sure that this car lasts a very long time. Is there anything I should do to make sure it gets a decent mileage? I drive over 20,000 miles a year, so it's a vehicle that should actually have a chance to wear out rather than just corroding into a pile of rust shavings.

How is the U660E's reputation these days? Have they fixed its issues from the first days of its operation - flaring and so on? Is the transmission fluid *really* "lifetime", and if not when should I have it changed? How long does the 2GR-FE last - does it have a reputation for wearing out prematurely? Is there anything I should know? Should I pull a fast one and switch back to, say, a 0W30-weight oil (the engine was originally specced for 5W30) as soon as the warranty expires?

I apologize if I've put this in the wrong forum. Since there's nothing broken yet, and I'm looking at it as a prospective buyer, I didn't think that it needed to go in maintenance.

These and other questions are on my mind. Any input you folks can give would be appreciated.

 

[cptbarkey]

The only issues with the 2GR-FE is the water pump can fail prematurely but that has been very uncommon. Our 2011 Sienna has been flawless.

If money isnt a concern buy the Lexus, if it is then look at the Avalon or even the Camry, both eat highway miles for lunch and have quiet cabins.

 

[skyactiv]

There are a few domestic cars that supposedly ride better and are quiter than the 2016 Lexus ES350: The new Chevy Impala and the Chrysler 300. I'd rather own/drive the Lexus, but these are the facts. You really need to read what Consumer Reports says about the 2016 Lexus ES350. If reliability outweighs everything else, it's a good bet.

 

[AirgunSavant]

Wow... I agree with you. I had 2013 Accord and in a [censored] radio and bad paint... I walked away from Honda.

I am considering a ES as well. I posted here last week.
I can't stand wind and road noise as well as Hondas [censored] suspensions. I'm going to look at a Lincoln MKZ hybrid as well.
Good luck.


Originally Posted By: David_Corbett
Hey there BITOG folks.

My current vehicle is an Accord Touring V6 - 2013. It's a great car, but there's enough lack of refinement in it (road and wind noise, rough suspension, mediocre sound system, sloppy, slow, rough and confused transmission, engine crippled by a VCM system that returns excellent mileage but leaves the car less responsive than my old '05 Accord V6) that it's starting to grate on me and I want something a little bit more relaxing so I can unwind on my commute in safety and comfort.

I'm considering buying a new Lexus ES350 sedan. As far as I can tell, it's got a decent reputation for reliability. The Avalon and ES both do very well on durability ratings. Lexus is a perennial reliability champ with JD Power and Consumer Reports. The engine has been in use for 12 years on a huge variety of models, the transmission for 10 in similarly prolific fashion, and the transmission/engine combo have been working together on Toyotas since model year 2007.

The whole thing seems immensely conservative in engineering, which isn't going to win comparison tests but should keep on rolling on and on like some sort of automotive cockroach. Or so I think.

Reliability is important to me. I am probably not unique on this website in that I am a somewhat anxious fellow and I do not like it when things do not work as they should - that's one of the main reasons I'm looking at this car in the first place. I want to make sure that this car lasts a very long time. Is there anything I should do to make sure it gets a decent mileage? I drive over 20,000 miles a year, so it's a vehicle that should actually have a chance to wear out rather than just corroding into a pile of rust shavings.

How is the U660E's reputation these days? Have they fixed its issues from the first days of its operation - flaring and so on? Is the transmission fluid *really* "lifetime", and if not when should I have it changed? How long does the 2GR-FE last - does it have a reputation for wearing out prematurely? Is there anything I should know? Should I pull a fast one and switch back to, say, a 0W30-weight oil (the engine was originally specced for 5W30) as soon as the warranty expires?

I apologize if I've put this in the wrong forum. Since there's nothing broken yet, and I'm looking at it as a prospective buyer, I didn't think that it needed to go in maintenance.

These and other questions are on my mind. Any input you folks can give would be appreciated.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: cptbarkey
The only issues with the 2GR-FE is the water pump can fail prematurely but that has been very uncommon. Our 2011 Sienna has been flawless.

If money isnt a concern buy the Lexus, if it is then look at the Avalon or even the Camry, both eat highway miles for lunch and have quiet cabins.


The older 2GR-FEs (2005-09, maybe some 2010s) would leak terribly from the timing cover after 50-100k miles. This is a $2500 job since it is 19 hours to pull the motor/trans assembly to reseal. The later 2GR-FEs are supposed to be "improved" in this area, but most of the late model Toyotas that I have worked on still have timing cover leaks to some degree once they get older.

The water pumps are a similar story, but those are less expensive to repair so I wouldn't be too concerned about the water pumps. Overall, aside from the inevitable timing cover leaks, the 2GR-FE is a pretty good motor that delivers great performance and fuel economy. I wouldn't hesitate to by one myself.

As far as the U660 goes, the early ones had some issues with torque converter shudder, but that has been resolved a long time ago. The U660s are all filled with WS and are lifetime fill; I've seen quite a few with over 150k that still work/shift just fine. I would still service the transmission at least every 60k, but it is quite difficult to get the fluid level set correctly (even with the scan tool) since it is also dependent on the idle speed while checking. Toyota recently came out with a new SST that allows you to check the fluid when it is hot, and this tool makes the process far more accurate. Unfortunately it's a $600 tool...

 

[David_Corbett]

The Critic, that's fantastic information. It sounds like taking proper care of the transmission will come down to finding a dealership that's willing to do the work and that has the correct tool.

As for the timing cover leaks - $2,500 buys a whole heck of a lot of oil, so it's probably not worth repairing if it isn't too bad. You mentioned that the old ones leak "terribly" - for the new ones, exactly what kind of oil loss rate would I be looking at, and is there anything I could do as a prospective owner to keep the oil where it belongs, in the engine?

 

[GMFan]

No 3 year old car will drive like a brand new vehicle - I don't care what make it is. Doesn't matter if its a stripper Honda or a Benz. All cars will all develop quirks, wear, odd noises, etc. Most folks chalk this up to the car "building character" as it gracefully ages. With each and every mile every component from the drivers seat to the suspension will gradually wear.

You may be happier simply leasing for 3 years. This way you will avoid the hit in depreciation, reliability won't matter nearly as much to you and you get a new ride every 3 years. If I earned $100 for every BITOGer (or family member) who bought a brand new car and said they were going to "keep it a long time" only to trade again after a few years because they found things about the car they didn't like I'd have a lot of $100 bills.

Also, there is no such thing as a perfect car. Every car has its weak points and if you drive it long enough you will find something that bothers you. If you are lucky enough to be financially able to always be driving new cars then leasing is your best bet. Even if you drive over the miles and end up paying a little extra you can usually get the dealer to drop the charge if you lease a new vehicle with them and if not, it will still cost less than the depreciation hit you'll take.

Best of luck in your search!

P.S - If vehicle NVH bothers you then I'd generally avoid Mazdas and Hondas which are notorious for bad NVH. Don't let that soft OEM rubber on new cars fool you!

 

[Nick1994]

I don't think you can just say a 3 year old car doesn't drive like it did when new.

My 16 year old Camry drives pretty darn close to new. Tight steering, quiet, smooth ride. Creaks and groans from the rear strut mounts but only on speed bumps.

 

[KitaCam]

Originally Posted By: Nick1994
I don't think you can just say a 3 year old car doesn't drive like it did when new.

My 16 year old Camry drives pretty darn close to new. Tight steering, quiet, smooth ride. Creaks and groans from the rear strut mounts but only on speed bumps.


Same with the 05 Kitacamry....gotta replace it's passenger side rear strut mount...it's making the car feel cheap...or at least old....but that OEM mount is $100+ and labor another $100...ugh.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: David_Corbett
The Critic, that's fantastic information. It sounds like taking proper care of the transmission will come down to finding a dealership that's willing to do the work and that has the correct tool.

As for the timing cover leaks - $2,500 buys a whole heck of a lot of oil, so it's probably not worth repairing if it isn't too bad. You mentioned that the old ones leak "terribly" - for the new ones, exactly what kind of oil loss rate would I be looking at, and is there anything I could do as a prospective owner to keep the oil where it belongs, in the engine?


Here's some info about the new toyota tool that is used for filling the transmission:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNcecuGzTDg

Prior to the release of this tool, the original method was to waiting until the fluid temp dropped - to between 104-113F. On the U660e, this usually meant waiting at least 4 hours. Obviously most shops were not willing to wait this long, and often checked the fluid when it was in the 120-130F range - which led to an underfill. Oops. So Toyota came out with this tool. But even when checking the fluid level using the original method, it is tricky because the U660e is fairly sensitive to the fluid level, and +/- 8oz can cause some noticeable differences in behavior.

As far as oil loss, the timing cover leaks usually do not cause significant oil loss. They just cause a big mess. If the leak is bad enough, I suppose it is possible for the oil to get onto the drive belt, but that is unlikely. One shop in MN has a blog entry about the leak:

http://carspecmn.com/toyota-and-lexus-v6...and-highlander/

 

[FutureDoc]

Is water wet? The ES is "the" reliable car. That is basically the only requirement for those in that price-range shopping for an ES - "it can't brake". However, like any car, there are some issues in various areas... and those expecting to drive 300,000 miles without changing the brake pads do get vocal online. Still, you are not going to see the frequency of problems as other makes (look at the C-Class). For the most part, Toyota kept the ES more on the "squishy" side for the ride (compared to the Avalon).

The current Gen Accords are the "last" of the Honda-esque 90's era build quality (includes rubbish paint) If you want to stay in that family, otherwise everything else is built like a Hyundai without the interior features (either consider that a compliment for Hyundai or an insult to Honda).

 

[David_Corbett]

Thanks a lot for all the input, folks. I'm really happy to see so many different perspectives here.

I think that some of us may have misunderstood my concerns with my car. I actually owned a 2005 Accord beforehand; I sold it to a relative and still get to drive it from time to time if I'm helping her out with errands. The last time I did so, it struck me that, now that they are both aged, my 2005 Accord may have been a better car than my 2013. (Not better equipped, no, but better driving.)

That was a serious wake-up call for me: that a car with more than twice the age and mileage rode better. So no, I don't think that it's just a question of a car losing its "newness" and its novelty. While there is deterioration with age, the primary characteristics of a vehicle are of course determined by how it is built.

I certainly doubt anyone on this forum believes that brake pads should last 300,000 miles. It's BITOG: except for the extended OCI types, I expect many of us are in the mindset to service early and service often.

The Critic, that doesn't sound so bad. So long as I wipe it down occasionally and make sure the oil stays filled, it'll be ok?

 

[FutureDoc]

I hope those 300K brake pads folks are not on this forum... yikes.

What I have found that if you search the ES "discussions" (I did the research for my parents, ended on an Avalon) is that those that had trouble are about as vocal as can be online. You can stumble on the bad-day car... but I see it too with 1ZZFED engine owners (MR2, etc). For example, my pre-cats could fail and that is $4K, the MR2 forums were in a buzz but it was a low % instance.

The 2GR-FE engine in the ES is the "the engine to have in Toyota's stables" with Toyota but I prefer the older 3MZ-FE... but that is mostly just nostalgia. Still, it seems to have made its way into almost any toyota offering with a V6 including Camry, Highlander, Rav4, etc... there are a lot out there.

I also agree that post-recession Hondas are not as good as per-recession Hondas. The definitely do not "wear" as well and you do not get that tight-as-a-drum feeling after 10-20years. My brothers 2003 with 220K and no maintenance (he is one of "those") is still surprisingly tight. I think Honda took the "as long as it does not grenade but everything else wears down" approach around 2009.

 

[David_Corbett]

So I actually went and bought a used GS350 AWD (felt like it was a more notable upgrade over my old Honda) - it's obviously a bit late to go around asking for advice now, but is there anything on that car I should watch out for? It has the 2GR-FSE engine and, I believe, the A760H transmission.

 

[raytseng]

Set aside money for maintenance.

This is not a knock on reliability/durability as lexus as a brand scores very well. But maintenance just costs more for labor especially if you go to the dealer, and stuff eventually will wear out.

If you can begin your search for a local independent toyota master mechanic who will also work on lexus that is to your benefit.

 

[adolan21]

I was dead set on the ES or the GS as my next car. I thought my search was over, then I find out the rear seats don't fold down. Not an option, they just don't on any Lexus until just recently I believe on the IS.

 

[Vikas]

Originally Posted By: David_Corbett
So I actually went and bought a used GS350 AWD (felt like it was a more notable upgrade over my old Honda) - it's obviously a bit late to go around asking for advice now, but is there anything on that car I should watch out for? It has the 2GR-FSE engine and, I believe, the A760H transmission.
Can you start a new thread to provide more information? I have always been partial to GS series Lexus and would love to hear more from an owner. There are not that many of them around.

 

[David_Corbett]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
Originally Posted By: David_Corbett
So I actually went and bought a used GS350 AWD (felt like it was a more notable upgrade over my old Honda) - it's obviously a bit late to go around asking for advice now, but is there anything on that car I should watch out for? It has the 2GR-FSE engine and, I believe, the A760H transmission.
Can you start a new thread to provide more information? I have always been partial to GS series Lexus and would love to hear more from an owner. There are not that many of them around.


I'm not sure how much there is to say! It's a beautiful car. It's not quite as relaxed of a driver as an ES is. The ES is a bit quieter and more sedate, but the GS is a far, far nicer vehicle inside and out. I find that, while the GS does a very good job at controlling wind noise and noise from other vehicles, it's a bit less good at road noise - which has a tendency to stick out more than it really should, as the rest of the car is so quiet. It also, very deliberately, lets more engine noise in - which is OK, because the engine sounds fantastic when pushed.

Mine has a ton of features that'll come in very handy in the winter, such as heated windshield wipers, a heated steering wheel, headlight washers, and a very serious full-time, rear-biased, planetary-gear, wet-clutch-limited-slip AWD system with a real centre differential and even a separate transfer case. (This is not to be confused with the FWD-with-assist systems masquerading as AWD on any number of products these days.) You can put it in snow mode to lock it in 50/50 rather than the usual 30/70 it sits at.

The interior quality is, in my view, fantastic. Unlike the ES (which comes pretty close, especially after the 2016 refresh) or the new NX (which really, really doesn't), it actually lives up to the Lexus reputation for interior quality.

The leather is soft, everything moves with a feeling of quality, and the materials almost everywhere are wonderful. The paint is also beautiful, and the car seems very well put together - possibly because it was assembled at Lexus's best production line in Tahara, alongside the LS. Sitting down in it, it is immediately obvious that it was a very expensive car new.

The car has a few great luxury features, such as a head-up display, rear sunshades, ventilated seats, adaptive cruise control, a comprehensive suite of rear-seat controls, a power trunk, et cetera. The new ES has pretty much all of them now, though, at a lower price. Up until now, I never knew how much I needed adaptive cruise control in my life. The 2013 model, and only the 2013 model, could also be had with night vision; I have the option, but have yet to find a practical use for it. Unlike the American models, the 2013 model in Canada lacked lane departure warning, lane keep assist and double-pane windows, but gained a power trunk.

The seats are absolutely fantastic. You can get them to adjust in up to eighteen ways, not including the manual headrest adjustments.

The adaptive variable suspension seems to work very well - putting the car in Sport+ mode really buttons it down and stiffens the suspension, at the expense of a bit of ride isolation.

I absolutely love the transmission on it; fast, responsive, smooth - vastly superior to the Honda's in pretty much every way.

The car does a bit worse on gas than my Honda. I used to be able to manage around 26-28mpg city and 31-34 mpg highway in my Accord. Now it's looking a bit more like 22-24mpg city and 26-29 mpg highway.

Getting about 20% worse mileage is actually a pretty good achievement for Toyota, given that the GS weighs around 500-600 pounds more than the V6 Accord, doesn't have cylinder deactivation, pushes out about 30 more horsepower, and has full-time AWD. My main fuel-related complaint is with the size of the gas tank. It's only 17.4 US gallons; in my view, it should be more like 20-21. The fact that it only takes premium kind of hurts, given that it can cost as much as $0.60 US per gallon more than regular here. (Unlike the gas tank, that isn't Toyota's fault.)

A few ergonomic gripes: watch out if your legs aren't quite on straight. My right leg turns out a bit, and so I find that the pedals are mounted a bit too far to the left for my liking - possibly to clear the transfer case. I'm getting much more used to it, though.

Speaking of the transfer case: if you're really tall, you might have trouble with the AWD transfer case intruding a bit into where you might want to put your right calf. This is based on other people's complaints: it doesn't interfere with my leg at all.

The steering wheel looks like it might be about a half inch too far to the right, but I haven't bothered to measure it properly - it feels just fine to me.

Compared to my old Honda, which had what must have been the absolute lightest pedals in the world, the pedals on the GS are quite a bit stiffer. Also unlike the old Honda, the accelerator takes a good deal of pushing to really come to life. Paradoxically, the steering is also lighter. I don't mind.

Oh, one last thing. Most auto journalists seem to treat the Lexus joystick as though it's some sort of cunning torture device devised by the angry ghosts of Tojo and Yamamoto to revenge themselves upon unsuspecting Americans by driving them to distraction and frustration. This is absolute nonsense. It's remarkably easy to use after a few minutes of habituation.

 

[Lolvoguy]

Originally Posted By: adolan21
I was dead set on the ES or the GS as my next car. I thought my search was over, then I find out the rear seats don't fold down. Not an option, they just don't on any Lexus until just recently I believe on the IS.


I was looking at older Acura, BMW, MB and Lexus models and found the same.

I was quite saddened that you have to basically "downgrade" to get folding rear seats to an Accord, Camry etc.
Anyone know why they don't offer it on these premium cars?
I was under the belief that it was due to a lack of structural rigidity that they never offered it

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: Lolvoguy

Anyone know why they don't offer it on these premium cars?

It's to keep the golf balls out of the passenger compartment, as surely you must know that "hauling" people to the gulf course is the primary usage for these cars...