I've seen recommendations of 1.0, 2.0 and 3.0 TBN and 25%, 33% and 50% of Virgin TBN for condemnation limits of oil for gasoline engines. Is their any real evidence for a particular limit?
TBN for Oil Change
- Thread starter Gene K
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I have read that different companies measure TBN in different ways.
I sent in an oil sample to Blackstone and the TBN report was 1.0. Blackstone suggested I could go farther next time? I agree with you, seems to be a lot of smoke and mirrors.
I sent in an oil sample to Blackstone and the TBN report was 1.0. Blackstone suggested I could go farther next time? I agree with you, seems to be a lot of smoke and mirrors.
If you poke around or use the search engine, you might find the original post here. What I got below, I found here in some discussion of TBN/acid in oil.
Blackstone sent me a reply:
We have indeed run samples where the TBN reached 0.0 and...nothing happened.
I guess in theory you might expect to see more wear after a while, but in
our opinion the TBN isn't all that important, because of that very case.
What happens when it reaches 0.0? Does the engine blow up? No. More wear?
Not that we've noticed, though we don't often see engines running an oil
long after the TBN reaches 0.0. I know a lot of people put a lot of priority
on a TBN, but we just haven't seen that it's all that important.
Sincerely,
Kristin Huff
Blackstone Labs
Blackstone sent me a reply:
We have indeed run samples where the TBN reached 0.0 and...nothing happened.
I guess in theory you might expect to see more wear after a while, but in
our opinion the TBN isn't all that important, because of that very case.
What happens when it reaches 0.0? Does the engine blow up? No. More wear?
Not that we've noticed, though we don't often see engines running an oil
long after the TBN reaches 0.0. I know a lot of people put a lot of priority
on a TBN, but we just haven't seen that it's all that important.
Sincerely,
Kristin Huff
Blackstone Labs
Originally Posted By: Gene K
I've seen recommendations of 1.0, 2.0 and 3.0 TBN and 25%, 33% and 50% of Virgin TBN for condemnation limits of oil for gasoline engines. Is their any real evidence for a particular limit?
I'd ask the lab what number they use as a condemnation point. Blackstone uses 1.0. That doesn't mean all labs use the same number.
I've seen recommendations of 1.0, 2.0 and 3.0 TBN and 25%, 33% and 50% of Virgin TBN for condemnation limits of oil for gasoline engines. Is their any real evidence for a particular limit?
I'd ask the lab what number they use as a condemnation point. Blackstone uses 1.0. That doesn't mean all labs use the same number.
I think Blackstone is biased with saying the TBN is not very important. They charge extra for TBN while most others include it. If they told people is was important and people see what Blackstone charged for TBN they would be more tempted to go with NAPA or Polaria or OAI.
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Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Gene K
I've seen recommendations of 1.0, 2.0 and 3.0 TBN and 25%, 33% and 50% of Virgin TBN for condemnation limits of oil for gasoline engines. Is their any real evidence for a particular limit?
I'd ask the lab what number they use as a condemnation point. Blackstone uses 1.0. That doesn't mean all labs use the same number.
^^^Totally agree; all labs DO NOT use the same numbers. Here is a table I found of Condemnation Limits from different sources: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4080685/Re:_Condemnation_limits_differ#Post4080685
I use Oil Analyzers, and I THINK they use >1 as a condemning limit for TBN, but I'm not sure; when TBN gets really low, they furnish TAN.
And to make matters worse, what do OEMs say about TBN, Iron and Silicon ppm, satisfactory ISO cleanliness levels, efficiency level specifications for oil filters stated in % efficient at what micron particle size and beta value, good/bad wear metal amounts, etc.???
Crickets from GM, Ford, Chrysler, Acura, Honda, Toyota, BMW, etc....So we all guess at what it takes to maintain our vehicles, and all the OEMs really want us to do is buy a new vehicle every 3-5 years...Guess I'm getting off topic; but I would title my rant as FRUSTRATION AT BEING FORCED TO GUESSIMATE BECAUSE THERE ARE NO REAL SPECIFICATIONS FROM OEMS.
Originally Posted By: Gene K
I've seen recommendations of 1.0, 2.0 and 3.0 TBN and 25%, 33% and 50% of Virgin TBN for condemnation limits of oil for gasoline engines. Is their any real evidence for a particular limit?
I'd ask the lab what number they use as a condemnation point. Blackstone uses 1.0. That doesn't mean all labs use the same number.
^^^Totally agree; all labs DO NOT use the same numbers. Here is a table I found of Condemnation Limits from different sources: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4080685/Re:_Condemnation_limits_differ#Post4080685
I use Oil Analyzers, and I THINK they use >1 as a condemning limit for TBN, but I'm not sure; when TBN gets really low, they furnish TAN.
And to make matters worse, what do OEMs say about TBN, Iron and Silicon ppm, satisfactory ISO cleanliness levels, efficiency level specifications for oil filters stated in % efficient at what micron particle size and beta value, good/bad wear metal amounts, etc.???
Crickets from GM, Ford, Chrysler, Acura, Honda, Toyota, BMW, etc....So we all guess at what it takes to maintain our vehicles, and all the OEMs really want us to do is buy a new vehicle every 3-5 years...Guess I'm getting off topic; but I would title my rant as FRUSTRATION AT BEING FORCED TO GUESSIMATE BECAUSE THERE ARE NO REAL SPECIFICATIONS FROM OEMS.
Originally Posted By: Ihatetochangeoil
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Gene K
I've seen recommendations of 1.0, 2.0 and 3.0 TBN and 25%, 33% and 50% of Virgin TBN for condemnation limits of oil for gasoline engines. Is their any real evidence for a particular limit?
I'd ask the lab what number they use as a condemnation point. Blackstone uses 1.0. That doesn't mean all labs use the same number.
^^^Totally agree; all labs DO NOT use the same numbers. Here is a table I found of Condemnation Limits from different sources: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4080685/Re:_Condemnation_limits_differ#Post4080685
I use Oil Analyzers, and I THINK they use >1 as a condemning limit for TBN, but I'm not sure; when TBN gets really low, they furnish TAN.
And to make matters worse, what do OEMs say about TBN, Iron and Silicon ppm, satisfactory ISO cleanliness levels, efficiency level specifications for oil filters stated in % efficient at what micron particle size and beta value, good/bad wear metal amounts, etc.
Crickets from GM, Ford, Chrysler, Acura, Honda, Toyota, BMW, etc....So we all guess at what it takes to maintain our vehicles, and all the OEMs really want us to do is buy a new vehicle every 3-5 years...Guess I'm getting off topic; but I would title my rant as FRUSTRATION AT BEING FORCED TO GUESSIMATE BECAUSE THERE ARE NO REAL SPECIFICATIONS FROM OEMS.
The OEMs don't publish any condemnation limits for the motor oils used in their passenger vehicles for the simple reason that they provide either hard time and mileage limits for drains or IOLMs. The limits either way are quite conservative so have nothing to do with wanting anyone to have to replace a car every 3-5 years due to engine wear.
One sees this conspiracy theory propounded in various threads while the reality is that passenger vehicle engines have never had longer average lives than they have now.
An owner who wants to run OCIs well in excess of those recommended by the manufacturer is on his own to an extent, but in practice the margins built into both recommended drain intervals as well as quality oils are such that it wouldn't matter unless the owner totally abandoned common sense and began doing silly-long drains.
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Gene K
I've seen recommendations of 1.0, 2.0 and 3.0 TBN and 25%, 33% and 50% of Virgin TBN for condemnation limits of oil for gasoline engines. Is their any real evidence for a particular limit?
I'd ask the lab what number they use as a condemnation point. Blackstone uses 1.0. That doesn't mean all labs use the same number.
^^^Totally agree; all labs DO NOT use the same numbers. Here is a table I found of Condemnation Limits from different sources: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4080685/Re:_Condemnation_limits_differ#Post4080685
I use Oil Analyzers, and I THINK they use >1 as a condemning limit for TBN, but I'm not sure; when TBN gets really low, they furnish TAN.
And to make matters worse, what do OEMs say about TBN, Iron and Silicon ppm, satisfactory ISO cleanliness levels, efficiency level specifications for oil filters stated in % efficient at what micron particle size and beta value, good/bad wear metal amounts, etc.
Crickets from GM, Ford, Chrysler, Acura, Honda, Toyota, BMW, etc....So we all guess at what it takes to maintain our vehicles, and all the OEMs really want us to do is buy a new vehicle every 3-5 years...Guess I'm getting off topic; but I would title my rant as FRUSTRATION AT BEING FORCED TO GUESSIMATE BECAUSE THERE ARE NO REAL SPECIFICATIONS FROM OEMS.
The OEMs don't publish any condemnation limits for the motor oils used in their passenger vehicles for the simple reason that they provide either hard time and mileage limits for drains or IOLMs. The limits either way are quite conservative so have nothing to do with wanting anyone to have to replace a car every 3-5 years due to engine wear.
One sees this conspiracy theory propounded in various threads while the reality is that passenger vehicle engines have never had longer average lives than they have now.
An owner who wants to run OCIs well in excess of those recommended by the manufacturer is on his own to an extent, but in practice the margins built into both recommended drain intervals as well as quality oils are such that it wouldn't matter unless the owner totally abandoned common sense and began doing silly-long drains.
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"An owner who wants to run OCIs well in excess of those recommended by the manufacturer is on his own to an extent, but in practice the margins built into both recommended drain intervals as well as quality oils are such that it wouldn't matter unless the owner totally abandoned common sense and began doing silly-long drains."
I'm not sure what your definition is of either common sense or silly-long drains, but there is a fellow on here named slalom44 doing 30 & 40K oil changes with bypass filtration and UOA. I would call this phenomenal, and he has neither abandoned common sense nor is it a "silly long drain" when comments from the test lab are "stick with this interval."
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3405712/Re:_Amsoil_0W-30_41K_OCI_w/byp#Post3405712
Personally, I think the technology exists to eliminate oil changes altogether. I intend to run both a centrifuge and a bypass filter that claims to restore TBN. I have to drill a couple holes in my oil pan and weld return fittings on and build some mounting brackets; so fabrication is going to take me some time...and unfortunately, I'm out of town on business travel, so it's going slowly...
The best method of purifying oil is to run both centrifuge and bypass filtration: http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/29426/purifying-engine-oil
"The best method of purification would be to use a combination of both purifiers and bypass filtration, since each has its limitations. Centrifugal purifiers are good at removing larger particles and water but not for removing the smaller organo-metallic particles, which a filter will remove. If you already have purifiers, keep them and add bypass filtration."
This is me: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4044692/Re:_centrifuge#Post4044692
This was on another car that, unfortunately, I rolled and completely destroyed avoiding a head on collision:
There are 5 US Patents on this filter; one of them is for time released additives to replenish your TBN: http://www.processfiltrationproducts.com/puraDYNFilterPage.html
I believe it is entirely possible to make oil changes as frequent as transmission rebuilds; and I guess my brainwaves just don't get a lock on ideas like $2 filters that are designed to get thrown away in 90-120 days or a few thousand miles. I have better things to do with my life other than lay under a car or wait in line for some teen aged kid to sabotage my car and get paid for it. I carry a few quarts of spare oil with me, and keep my oil topped up, but I want to go 100K or more and NOT change oil; maybe never. My apologies to the OP if this is off topic, but where's the thread for never changing your oil and running your car for 300K?
I'm not sure what your definition is of either common sense or silly-long drains, but there is a fellow on here named slalom44 doing 30 & 40K oil changes with bypass filtration and UOA. I would call this phenomenal, and he has neither abandoned common sense nor is it a "silly long drain" when comments from the test lab are "stick with this interval."
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3405712/Re:_Amsoil_0W-30_41K_OCI_w/byp#Post3405712
Personally, I think the technology exists to eliminate oil changes altogether. I intend to run both a centrifuge and a bypass filter that claims to restore TBN. I have to drill a couple holes in my oil pan and weld return fittings on and build some mounting brackets; so fabrication is going to take me some time...and unfortunately, I'm out of town on business travel, so it's going slowly...
The best method of purifying oil is to run both centrifuge and bypass filtration: http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/29426/purifying-engine-oil
"The best method of purification would be to use a combination of both purifiers and bypass filtration, since each has its limitations. Centrifugal purifiers are good at removing larger particles and water but not for removing the smaller organo-metallic particles, which a filter will remove. If you already have purifiers, keep them and add bypass filtration."
This is me: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4044692/Re:_centrifuge#Post4044692
This was on another car that, unfortunately, I rolled and completely destroyed avoiding a head on collision:
There are 5 US Patents on this filter; one of them is for time released additives to replenish your TBN: http://www.processfiltrationproducts.com/puraDYNFilterPage.html
I believe it is entirely possible to make oil changes as frequent as transmission rebuilds; and I guess my brainwaves just don't get a lock on ideas like $2 filters that are designed to get thrown away in 90-120 days or a few thousand miles. I have better things to do with my life other than lay under a car or wait in line for some teen aged kid to sabotage my car and get paid for it. I carry a few quarts of spare oil with me, and keep my oil topped up, but I want to go 100K or more and NOT change oil; maybe never. My apologies to the OP if this is off topic, but where's the thread for never changing your oil and running your car for 300K?
While we don't get this kind of info from auto/pickup OEM's, on commercial heavy trucks and equipment, the OEM's provide a lot more info on what they consider the acceptable TBN left, wear metal counts, fuel dilution, etc. On my Detroit Diesel, TBN limit determining oil change is when it reaches 1/3 of the beginning value. At least they state they do not deny warranty simply for taking oil drains over their recommendation, but they lay out the parameters for an owner to consider in extending drain intervals and still be on good terms with them.
For me, and if the UOA is Blackstone, it has to be > 1.5 If it gets to less, I'm very nervous about the chemistry and dissimilar metals...
I'm still not 100% sure what TBN even is. And I've read the motor oil university.
I see oils that start at like a 6 TBN and some say how great or bad it is and needs to be higher.
Then others have an 11 or 12 and then some complain about no moly or too much sodium.
I'm clueless and confused. lol
I see oils that start at like a 6 TBN and some say how great or bad it is and needs to be higher.
Then others have an 11 or 12 and then some complain about no moly or too much sodium.
I'm clueless and confused. lol
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