50% Efficient HCCI Engine

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: Mitch Alsup
A) braking events are very short
B) you still need the turbo spooled up after the braking interval.


A) It doesn't matter how short the braking events are, it's the high rate of energy generation during the braking event, which they are trying to capture to put into the battery.
B) The turbo can be spooled up by releasing electricity stored in the battery into the turbogenerator.

 

[yvon_la]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
This guy hasn't built an engine yet. He only has a plastic 3D printed model. You can make any claim you want until you actually test.


go on YouTube and search these key word:geet or fuel vaporizer
the simple version?gas need 450 faren(basicly putting the gas tube to an exaust all the way then hooking it around exaust manifold would change the gas from liquid to gas form would do it)
or you could create a geet but its a bit more complicated .
other just grab the vapor off of a gas can directly with an ultrasonic nebulizer
i dont need to go to (add car brand here) to know it works .its all around avail very easy ,even india people are adopting these various method! why isnt it more popular, because a lot of the technology is very new a these things go!ok that was a lie! say ty to shell for this conundrum .since they knew in the 30s to 40s this was doable. a guy was even killed by showing how it was done back then !

 

[DriveHard]

In my understanding the "HCCI" mode that F1 is using is actually more similar to diesel like operation using whatever fuel F1 uses, and not true HCCI.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/analysis-how-jet-technology-is-shaping-f1-engine-battle-690156/

Perhaps the writer of the article does not understand HCCI, or it's just described in a way that is confusing to me. Either way, it doesn't sound like true HCCI to me.

 

[Shannow]

mahle system

 

[DriveHard]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
mahle system


Again, maybe I am missing something, but it still doesn't seem to be a true HCCI engine.

 

[Shannow]

Nope its not its closer to the ancient jet ignition...used to be able to buy adaptors you could screw into plug hole and screw plug in after for similar effect

 

[Garak]

This article is a bit dated, but it does give some rationale as to different modes of operation off throttle in Formula 1.

 

[Shannow]

Garak,
interesting article, and not really sure that it suggest HCCI on overrun...

Air and fuel in the right proportions will burn when exposed to the exhaust temperatures, and have the downforce advantage of not having engine work extracted from them...one would presume that the "hot" system described helps put even more weight on the back end during braking and weight transfer than the similar fuel burn on acceleration.

not sure on the merc benz "45%" ignition delayed, is that 45% of a stroke (30-40 degrees after TDC), or 45% of a cycle...45% of a cycle would mean firing at 40-50 degrees before tdc on the exhaust stroke...clearly as both scenarios involve NOT extracting work from the expanding gasses, they are not intended to cool exhaust valves, but maximise exhaust enthalpy.

 

[Garak]

No, not exactly, but some of the discussion in this thread has related to what actually happens in an F1 car when they let off the throttle. It's certainly not exactly the same as a real HCCI setup, but the F1 commentators weren't exactly being technically rigorous, either.

In the British feed, it was mentioned by Crofty, I believe it was, that it was akin to that type of setup, with Martin Brundle, I believe, somewhat qualifying that with that it was more like after run dieseling you occasionally see in an old gasser, perhaps being compression ignition, but certainly not necessarily being compression ignition, despite the name dieseling.

In any case, at my own sanity's peril, I read some of the current technical regulations, and I could find nothing preventing a team from shutting off the fuel flow. The maximums are regulated (and heavily), but not the minimums. With respect to spark:

Originally Posted By: FIA 2016 Technical Regulations Rev. 20160227, 5.11.1
Ignition is only permitted by means of a single ignition coil and single spark plug per cylinder. No more than five sparks per cylinder per engine cycle are permitted.


So, a "real" HCCI system would likely be forbidden. As for the engineering aspects themselves, those are some exceedingly talented people and what they're doing with these engines is far beyond me.

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Nope its not its closer to the ancient jet ignition...used to be able to buy adaptors you could screw into plug hole and screw plug in after for similar effect


Vaguely heard of the Mahle thing (have a fairly old paper somewhere) but I didn't know you could actually BUY anything.

Don't quite see how that could work without fuel enrichment in the pre-chamber, but I'd guess the argument was it altered the shape of the flame front.

Don't suppose there's any evidence that it actually worked?

What I'd like somebody to come up with is a plug hole injector that could be retro-fitted to 2 stroke engines, transforming my motorcycle (and third world air quality) but I guess neither are big priorities.

A quibble about that presentation:

"3D Simulations : Validation of Experiments" (said it TWICE)

Say WHAT?? Shouldn't that be the OTHER WAY AROUND?

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Nope its not its closer to the ancient jet ignition...used to be able to buy adaptors you could screw into plug hole and screw plug in after for similar effect


ebay comes up empty

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Nope its not its closer to the ancient jet ignition...used to be able to buy adaptors you could screw into plug hole and screw plug in after for similar effect


ebay comes up empty

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/spark-plug-non-fouler

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Nope its not its closer to the ancient jet ignition...used to be able to buy adaptors you could screw into plug hole and screw plug in after for similar effect


ebay comes up empty

http://www.ebay.com/bhp/spark-plug-non-fouler


Well, I wasn't looking for "non-fouler" and I'm not sure I believe that either. There has to be enough swirl to get fuel (and therefore any oil) to the plug or you'd get misfires, but I suppose there might be more local heating of the plugs so the effect would be similar to running a hotter plug, which can reduce fouling.

How about this though?

Feed water electrolysis product (HHO) into the plug chamber.

Its a low proportion of the total charge, so you wouldn't have to make a huge amount, and its guaranteed stochiometric so it'll be nicely ignitable. You might not even have to time its injection, though, (unlike the ebay gizmo's) if you don't you'd want to try and minimise swirl into the chamber, (which may not be possible), or you'd loose a lot in the exhaust.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Ducked
Well, I wasn't looking for "non-fouler" and I'm not sure I believe that either. There has to be enough swirl to get fuel (and therefore any oil) to the plug or you'd get misfires, but I suppose there might be more local heating of the plugs so the effect would be similar to running a hotter plug, which can reduce fouling.


They were just what I found them under.

Back in the day they were called such impressive names as "jet fire adaptors" and the like, the intent being to punch a jet of flame into the chamber, promote turbulence and burn rate.

Theres heaps of information around them on the 'net, you just won't find prechamber spark plug on ebay of all places

http://www.sangwonenc.com/eng/business/business_02.php

 

[Garak]

Shannow, Autosport had an article today (premium, so can't be linked) and the F1 race this weekend had a discussion on what some of them are doing, with a bit more detail. In addition to what I linked before, it's essentially pre-chamber ignition, still using a spark plug, as per the technical regulations.

At least I can link a picture from the article:

 

[Shannow]

Thanks Garak,
isn't it amazing that what's been done before keeps popping back up.

Might get me a set of the anti foulers.

Back in Uni days, I read a few SAE papers (we had the whole library on microfiche), and they could extend lean burn with them.

 

[Garak]

The fuel savings and power liberation are apparently very significant, to the point that all teams will be doing this in the very near future. They've gone from worrying about not being able to carry enough fuel when this set of rules came out, to being able to run fairly hard and not carry the maximum allotted fuel, and cut lap times significantly, to the point that records are being broken from the glory years.

 

[Koz1]

Blown axles, Multiple combustion chambers and scores of other things, F1 killing the tracks.
That pic dosnt really explain why its better, when you start a burn in multiple places in the Combustion Chamber its both more efficient and can run better with leaner ratios.

 

[Garak]

No, the pic doesn't show much. The article did more, but it cannot be linked as it's a premium article. It seems they started to talk a lot more about this after some of the imprecise descriptions given by commentators over the season. Had one taken them at face value, the engines would have likely been violating technical regulations.