SM/CF and other dual ratings

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Originally Posted By: alarmguy
Joe, Garak ... and ANYONE else who has good knowledge of this ACEA thing. If you can help that would be great. Its important to me personally to use the recommended oil type for my bike.

My bike clearly calls for CH4 or higher. In the USA its almost impossible to find except for 1 company and 2 boutique companies in a 20w50. I am currently using the 1 company, Citgo product Mystik semisyn 20/50. Has claims of up to a CJ4 oil but no API symbols etc.

This thread caught my attention with this ACEA rating thing which I know nothing about and never paid nor had a reason to pay attention to it. It almost sounds more precise and stringent rating then the API ratings.

SO QUESTION is, does anyone know for sure what ACEA rated oil would meet or beat an API rating of CH4 or better?

Is there such as thing? Is an A3/B3 the equal or superior to an (API) CH or higher?
What about an A3/B4?
or do I really need to go to an ACEA E class oil?
and what about all the ACEA oils inbetween??

Appreciate your thoughts...
Im really clueless in this area and will start researching. ... researching now, cool thread, ACEA seems like a much better rating system and stringent.


(for others reading this post I do not care to get into a motorcycle oil discussion, I just want to know if their is an equal ACEA rating for an API "C" rated oil.)
Reasear


Part of your issue is the difference between Passenger Car Diesel and Heavy Duty Diesel definitions in the API vs ACEA.

In the API you have SN- for PCEO (typically gasoline), you have CJ-4 (soon to be CK-4) for HDDEO. The API doesn't have a specific category for Passenger Car Diesel engines the way Europe does.

For ACEA you have the E category for HDDEO and in passenger car you have A for Gasoline, B for diesel and C for low saps oils.

Because of this key difference in North America almost all diesels will call for an API C category oil - because they are mostly heavy duty engines. With the new FA-4 category coming this fall you will probably see passenger car diesels gravitate towards this category as it will be closer to the ACEA C1 or C2 oils or A1/B1, A5/B5 if they have higher phosphorus (ie CK-4 only not CK-4/SN).

Also for Motorcycle oils, they often refer to older categories in combination with the required JASO specification.

Here are some good resources to help you get started with your research:
http://www.hddeo.com/keyspecifications/ACEA
http://pceo.com/key-specs/acea
Motorcycle 4 stroke Key specifications

In a short answer to your questions A3/B3 and A3/B4 are high saps (so more similar to the CH API category than to CJ-4) would likely be closer to what you need in your bike - unless you opt for a dedicated motorcycle oil which would be my preference.

The other thing to note is that ACEA certifications are "evergreen" which means the category name doesn't change even though the specifications may be upgraded. For example ACEA A3/B4 oils from 2010 will meet a different specification than those that meet the specification upgrade from 2012. Dexos specifications also work this way (with a revised Dexos1 being released this year). It can be hard for consumers to know the differences between specification years, but ACEA's theory is that if you are purchasing new oil, it will always be the most up to date specification. They do not allow older specification categories to be claimed the way the API does (API CI-4+ is still an active category even though the spec is like 15 years old).
 
Thanks for your response!
If this "chart" is correct it seems Mobile 1 fits the A3/B3 in the 15/50 which should be good being my engine calls for a CH4 or better. Assuming the Mobile 1 15/50 I buy is the same that is universally sold. Ill check the bottle next time.
Just trying to use the specified oil. My problem with the motorcycle oils is they do not list or certify what is called for in my engine. I know I am most likely splitting hairs here but Im one of those people, most likely like a lot of us and why we are in this forum. :eek:)
Specility motor oil guide
 
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Very nice informatoin, Solarent! The ACEA website has some pretty good reading, too, if one has the time.

I noticed the mention of Mystik, too. I don't know a lot about them, but we do seem them up here, and they do provide options for someone needing some oddball specifications.
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Very nice informatoin, Solarent! The ACEA website has some pretty good reading, too, if one has the time.

I noticed the mention of Mystik, too. I don't know a lot about them, but we do seem them up here, and they do provide options for someone needing some oddball specifications.
wink.gif



If interested, I posted a VOA on it last year, pretty plain Jane, but seems pretty robust never mind all the things a VOA doesn't show.
Here is the link to the BITOG post, Mystik JT8 15/50 semisynthetic

Here is a direct link to the VOA

ALSO NOTE, Blackstone refers to it as 15/40 which incorrect but understandable error. It's 15/50
 
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Plain can be good. That looks to be well within the norms for an additive package for a CJ-4 lubricant. I'm not sure of its pricing up here off hand, but I do note that Canadian Tire has a bit of a special on it once in a while. I'm under the impression that they target it to outdoor recreational equipment here, too, including motorcycles and snowmobiles. Considering there aren't often a lot of alternatives outside of dealer choices, that's not a bad thing.
 
Garak,
Yes, I guess no reason for me to switch, as long as their claims for meeting the spec is correct.
Here in the US its also mentioned as a favorite oil in the agriculture industry.

I hesitate to mention cost because the cost of the Mystik JT8 15/50 oil is so low that some might feel I am interested only because the price which is not true. I use the oil because it states it meets and exceeds the specs of the requirement that my motorcycle calls for. This doesnt mean I would not like to see more choices but if "sound" of the engine means anything I can say this, no unpleasant noise of any kind, clacking, clapping etc. Which I see some complain of in bikes with other oils and they end up switching, not that is scientific in anyway.

A 2 gallon jug of Mystik JT8 15/50 delivered to my door is $34.00
Here is the link if anyone wants to check it out.
The container and label has been updated to silver, photo on the website is old.

Thanks for your reply and again to Solarent
 
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Originally Posted By: Garak
If I were wanting to use an HDEO in a motorcycle, I'd be looking to Rotella 15w-40 first, and that will be CJ-4, along with E7, E9, if I remember correctly.


(I know that alarmguy said he needs either 20w-50 or 15w-40, but nonetheless)... As far as I remember, Rotella T 15w-40 doesn't carry the JASO MA (wet clutch/shared sump) safe badge, but Rotella T6 5w-40 does.

~ Triton
 
Triton posted something useful about the motorcycle spec, for the sake of the reference. As for Mystik, up here it's a bit expensive, but not terrible. It's bordering on a boutique up here, so I didn't consider that you'd be doing this to be cheap.
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
As for Mystik, up here it's a bit expensive, but not terrible. It's bordering on a boutique up here, so I didn't consider that you'd be doing this to be cheap.
wink.gif



Thats kind of cool to know!
 
Originally Posted By: Triton_330
Originally Posted By: Garak
If I were wanting to use an HDEO in a motorcycle, I'd be looking to Rotella 15w-40 first, and that will be CJ-4, along with E7, E9, if I remember correctly.


(I know that alarmguy said he needs either 20w-50 or 15w-40, but nonetheless)... As far as I remember, Rotella T 15w-40 doesn't carry the JASO MA (wet clutch/shared sump) safe badge, but Rotella T6 5w-40 does.

~ Triton


Rotella T 15/40 Conventional carries the JASO Spec. My bike does not share the engine oil, no Jaso required only diesel oil CH4+ or higher.

Being in my hot climate I wouldnt use a 15/40 oil though. More so when my manual says "prefer" 20/50, add to that, 4 straight months of the year here daytime temps are 95+ degrees and I am sure we are above the national average...

5/40 oil is never recommended for motorcycles, if so very rarely. I personally would never use a 5/40 if my bike did share oil with the transmission and clutch.
 
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
Joe90_guy,
yeah, CF-4 was it.

Nissan DID at one stage give me a statement that the newer oils dispersed the soot, and lead to cam wear, while the older oils tended to collect soot particles to be filtered.


Filtered....Or stuck to the inside of the engine as a soot-based sludge.

Newer diesel oils are designed for very different engines (EGR, DPF) and have very little in common with older diesel oils.
 
Originally Posted By: Hohn
Newer diesel oils are designed for very different engines (EGR, DPF) and have very little in common with older diesel oils.


It's DOHC, 4 valve, DI turbo with EGR, swirl ports and a cat/PF.
 
Originally Posted By: Hohn
Or stuck to the inside of the engine as a soot-based sludge.


I've never seen a sludged up diesel engine - intake manifolds are a different story.
 
Hi Silk,

Originally Posted By: Silk
Originally Posted By: Hohn
Or stuck to the inside of the engine as a soot-based sludge.


I've never seen a sludged up diesel engine - intake manifolds are a different story.


Various diesel engines have been and are prone to soot based sludging. Mostly it was/is due to using an incorrect Spec lubricant, lack of an appropriate OCI, breathing issues and etc.

Anybody that has owned an L10 or M11 Cummins engine may know what I mean!
 
At least in this Australian market, my research recently on Castrol's line of products indicates they sell a number of variants of their "RX" Diesel oil product for differing applications.
http://www.castrol.com/en_au/australia/p...duct-range.html

FWIW - I do admit defeat at this point, and will be switching to a Diesel oil for a shorter interval in my car to try and cure the lifter tick after about 6,000-7,000km (3700-4400 miles) on the current fill.

Also note that Castrol offer RX in Monogrades too; with API SF or SG ratings for Petrol engines!
 
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Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi Silk,

Originally Posted By: Silk
Originally Posted By: Hohn
Or stuck to the inside of the engine as a soot-based sludge.


I've never seen a sludged up diesel engine - intake manifolds are a different story.


Various diesel engines have been and are prone to soot based sludging. Mostly it was/is due to using an incorrect Spec lubricant, lack of an appropriate OCI, breathing issues and etc.

Anybody that has owned an L10 or M11 Cummins engine may know what I mean!


+1
Wasn't pre-1980's Pre-Combustion Direct Injected diesel engines having soot issues big time with CF-4 introduced in around 1990?? .....
and SAE worked out another classification of CF in 1994 to make good the fiasco..?
 
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Hi Zeng,

[/quote]
+1
Wasn't pre-1980's Pre-Combustion Direct Injected diesel engines having soot issues big time with CF-4 introduced in around 1990?? .....
and SAE worked out another classification of CF in 1994 to make good the fiasco..? [/quote]

It really started with US sourced engines in the early 1970s. The API lube Specs lagged behind engine development. The API then formed a consultative Committee of OEMs that hammered out more appropriate Specs. As well, some OEMs commenced following CAT's lead from the 1950s with their own Approval/Specs processes

Euro OEMs like Daimler Benz had theirs in place in the 1950s
 
Originally Posted By: B320i


Also note that Castrol offer RX in Monogrades too; with API SF or SG ratings for Petrol engines!


Thanks for saying that, I never realised we got Castrol RX monogrades here (I'm sure lots did know that, but I didn't). I'll check them out.
 
Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
It really started with US sourced engines in the early 1970s. The API lube Specs lagged behind engine development. The API then formed a consultative Committee of OEMs that hammered out more appropriate Specs. As well, some OEMs commenced following CAT's lead from the 1950s with their own Approval/Specs processes

This is how bad some things looked in North America. I got this from the manual for our 1974 Case 1270.

WqJMyn.jpg


No oil specification is listed, aside from the trade name of the Case oil, Case HDM. In any case, it received, exclusively, the Esso XD-3 15w-40 of whatever specification was current throughout its use.
 
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