Truck Crash Test

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Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Another example: My sister's 330i has the big brake kit on it, my wife's 328i didn't. Subsequently braking performance on my wife's car was not on-par with my sister's. And that's variance between the same car family and model series.


You bring up a very good point. In this day and age, where we have mandated traction control, brake force distribution, ABS etc. and even the econoboxes seem to come equipped with 17-18 inch wheels, I still can't believe how puny some of the braking systems are.
I'm not talking about a Brembo style system in every vehicle, but is it really so much more money to add two piston calipers or ventilated rear discs, or keep the larger brake options in all trim levels, not just the most expensive ones? It would improve the safety of a lot of vehicles.

For one emergency stop having a name on your calipers or painting them red doesn't make a significant difference. Now those cars with big fancy brakes might have a better electronic brake force redistribution system which would help a bit. Mostly though those cars come with some decent rubber which is the weakest link in any cars braking system.
If you want a real example, bring your car to an autocross and run it on your normal tires. Then go for a ride in a similar car with stock brakes, but with 200 or lower treadwear tires... You won't believe the difference in everything. The car will stand on its nose multiple times in a minute without a problem.
I got a set of BFG Comp2's for my Focus and its kind of like putting on a super hero costume, compared to my old terrible tires.
 
I will say that even between the M5, which had big brakes, and the SRT-8, which also has big brakes, there is a noticeable difference in the ability to modulate, initial bite, consistency and general brake feel. And that's between two high-end cars. The Brembo kit is a heck of a lot more than a name and red paint, they are simply a much better product.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
That's why I put the qualifier of both having 5-star crash test ratings in there
wink.gif


And there is significantly less of weight difference between a BMW 7'er, S-class....etc and a truck than there is between that truck and a Civic, or even probably those cars and a Civic.

I think it comes down to built quality.
These trucks are not hold to same standard as cars.
I do not want to even mention braking, handling etc.


Maybe if you specify high-end German cars, where crash test performance is always top of the heap. Compared to normal cars, trucks are most certainly held to the same standard and probably higher regarding braking since they have to be able to stop loaded and towing.

My M5 had so many airbags that it was nuts. Two front, side curtain, side seat, rear curtain, rear pillars, front pillars....etc. That's a car with some rather extreme safety features going on. It also had large brakes and excellent handling. It was also a 100K car.

Compared to even my wife's Charger, which is 5 years newer, it has nowhere near the airbags, the brakes aren't even close, and while it handles well, the M5 was better.

My new SRT is much closer, but also 13 years newer and the top of the heap in that platform at the time, so it comes with Brembo's and better suspension.

Another example: My sister's 330i has the big brake kit on it, my wife's 328i didn't. Subsequently braking performance on my wife's car was not on-par with my sister's. And that's variance between the same car family and model series.

There are tons of variables in play, far too many to be able to state with conviction that this type of vehicle isn't held to the same standard as this type of vehicle based on a couple of anecdotes. If we leave out the big Benz's and Bimmers with their above and beyond crash worthiness things are a lot more muddy in the middle.

You misunderstood me.
I was referring to same standard when it come sot crash tests.
I am not sure in which category trucks fall into (i do not need one, so I believe it is ridiculous to own one as commuter), but I am not sure when it comes to crash tests that they fall into same category as personal vehicles.
When it comes to brakes , European cars are generally much better because they are first and foremost built for European roads. When we talk about German cars, they come with brakes that can easily take onto speeds well upward of 120+ mph. He in North America, thing get changed a little bit. For example BMW 328i will come with All season tires which is unheard of in Europe. In Europe on 328i you will get Bridgestone Potenza, Continental Sport Contact 5 or Michelin Pilot. I bought Skoda Octavia 1.9tdi (105hp) in Bosnia and it came with Continental SportContact 3 (at that time premier performance tire for Continental). Although maximum speed of that car is 115mph, on HWy's it was regularly driven 110mph!
So you are getting on those cars brakes that are tuned for high speeds, and they will perform much better then brakes tuned for the U.S. roads. What I am trying to say is that driving 60mph is same in Dodge Ram and Mercedes-Benz GLS, but braking performance is different.
And I get the point that price is big thing here, but it comes to the expense of safety.
However, when it comes to some products like Dodge Ram, I am not sure whether it is a price or just company figured that they can sell cheap product and get away with it.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I will say that even between the M5, which had big brakes, and the SRT-8, which also has big brakes, there is a noticeable difference in the ability to modulate, initial bite, consistency and general brake feel. And that's between two high-end cars. The Brembo kit is a heck of a lot more than a name and red paint, they are simply a much better product.

I agree, but for 99.9% of people in a potential accident situation, most people will be lucky to have the presence of mind just to mash the brake pedal hard enough to engage ABS and stay on it until the car is stopped...
MB specifically came out with a system just to keep the brakes applied once someone initiates a panic stop as they found many people let off the brakes and still drove into their accident.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_brake_assist

Better brake feel and modulation certainly doesn't hurt anything, but that's more for having fun. A driver just recognizing an accident situation probably just 1/2 a second sooner makes a far bigger difference. Truck drivers have braking performance akin to you using your parking brake on the highway, but they still get in less accidents per mile than the average driver...

I did my first autocross last weekend with the Focus and beat many good cars in raw time, just because it was the first time they've autocrossed. Eventually if they practice, a CTS-V or an Elise should whoop me pretty soundly, but the loose nut behind the wheel makes a pretty big difference.
 
Originally Posted By: edyvw

You misunderstood me.
I was referring to same standard when it come sot crash tests.
I am not sure in which category trucks fall into (i do not need one, so I believe it is ridiculous to own one as commuter), but I am not sure when it comes to crash tests that they fall into same category as personal vehicles.


I believe the categories are all the same. You can check the IIHS site to confirm though.

Originally Posted By: edyvw
When it comes to brakes , European cars are generally much better because they are first and foremost built for European roads. When we talk about German cars, they come with brakes that can easily take onto speeds well upward of 120+ mph.


I think the same goes for airbags and supplemental restraint systems too IMHO. There's just a lot more safety equipment in the German vehicles.

Originally Posted By: edyvw
He in North America, thing get changed a little bit. For example BMW 328i will come with All season tires which is unheard of in Europe. In Europe on 328i you will get Bridgestone Potenza, Continental Sport Contact 5 or Michelin Pilot. I bought Skoda Octavia 1.9tdi (105hp) in Bosnia and it came with Continental SportContact 3 (at that time premier performance tire for Continental). Although maximum speed of that car is 115mph, on HWy's it was regularly driven 110mph!
So you are getting on those cars brakes that are tuned for high speeds, and they will perform much better then brakes tuned for the U.S. roads. What I am trying to say is that driving 60mph is same in Dodge Ram and Mercedes-Benz GLS, but braking performance is different.


Yes, but again that's a German vehicle example. Though the RAM will be designed to stop a trailer, so its brakes are probably better than a similar car setup for American roads IMHO.

Originally Posted By: edyvw
And I get the point that price is big thing here, but it comes to the expense of safety.
However, when it comes to some products like Dodge Ram, I am not sure whether it is a price or just company figured that they can sell cheap product and get away with it.


Have you experienced poor brake performance on a RAM? Just curious as you've used that example twice. It's a truck, so it should have truck-like brakes, which should be pretty decent.
 
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I will say that even between the M5, which had big brakes, and the SRT-8, which also has big brakes, there is a noticeable difference in the ability to modulate, initial bite, consistency and general brake feel. And that's between two high-end cars. The Brembo kit is a heck of a lot more than a name and red paint, they are simply a much better product.

I agree, but for 99.9% of people in a potential accident situation, most people will be lucky to have the presence of mind just to mash the brake pedal hard enough to engage ABS and stay on it until the car is stopped...
MB specifically came out with a system just to keep the brakes applied once someone initiates a panic stop as they found many people let off the brakes and still drove into their accident.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_brake_assist

Better brake feel and modulation certainly doesn't hurt anything, but that's more for having fun. A driver just recognizing an accident situation probably just 1/2 a second sooner makes a far bigger difference. Truck drivers have braking performance akin to you using your parking brake on the highway, but they still get in less accidents per mile than the average driver...

I did my first autocross last weekend with the Focus and beat many good cars in raw time, just because it was the first time they've autocrossed. Eventually if they practice, a CTS-V or an Elise should whoop me pretty soundly, but the loose nut behind the wheel makes a pretty big difference.







thumbsup2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
If I ever need a new truck, Ford will be the one not only for this but they have more American content than Chevy and Dodge.

Equal to the Toyota trucks, correct?
Who knows. I won't consider a foreign brand. The 'Muricans make better trucks anyway IMO. No reason to consider sending my money to Japan and using lower paid non-union workers in the manufacture.


I wonder which one has a higher actual United States content, since the published numbers include Canadian (and sometimes Mexican) content as "American".



Mexican content doesn't count as domestic, but Canadian does. I'm disgusted with GM right now with the 40% domestic content. 51% of their truck is from Mexico according to the sticker. I don't know about Toyota, though. To their credit their parts content couldn't be any less than GM.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: edyvw

You misunderstood me.
I was referring to same standard when it come sot crash tests.
I am not sure in which category trucks fall into (i do not need one, so I believe it is ridiculous to own one as commuter), but I am not sure when it comes to crash tests that they fall into same category as personal vehicles.


I believe the categories are all the same. You can check the IIHS site to confirm though.

Originally Posted By: edyvw
When it comes to brakes , European cars are generally much better because they are first and foremost built for European roads. When we talk about German cars, they come with brakes that can easily take onto speeds well upward of 120+ mph.


I think the same goes for airbags and supplemental restraint systems too IMHO. There's just a lot more safety equipment in the German vehicles.

Originally Posted By: edyvw
He in North America, thing get changed a little bit. For example BMW 328i will come with All season tires which is unheard of in Europe. In Europe on 328i you will get Bridgestone Potenza, Continental Sport Contact 5 or Michelin Pilot. I bought Skoda Octavia 1.9tdi (105hp) in Bosnia and it came with Continental SportContact 3 (at that time premier performance tire for Continental). Although maximum speed of that car is 115mph, on HWy's it was regularly driven 110mph!
So you are getting on those cars brakes that are tuned for high speeds, and they will perform much better then brakes tuned for the U.S. roads. What I am trying to say is that driving 60mph is same in Dodge Ram and Mercedes-Benz GLS, but braking performance is different.


Yes, but again that's a German vehicle example. Though the RAM will be designed to stop a trailer, so its brakes are probably better than a similar car setup for American roads IMHO.

Originally Posted By: edyvw
And I get the point that price is big thing here, but it comes to the expense of safety.
However, when it comes to some products like Dodge Ram, I am not sure whether it is a price or just company figured that they can sell cheap product and get away with it.


Have you experienced poor brake performance on a RAM? Just curious as you've used that example twice. It's a truck, so it should have truck-like brakes, which should be pretty decent.

Yes, I drove many trucks, from RAM, to Tundra. IMO their brakes cannot compare to cars because it comes to the question of price. Trucks are cheap, but it is required from them to do a lot. Business owners who need them are first looking at the sticker price and reliability, they do not want to know about braking distance 60-0 and similar stuff.
Point is, they decided not to built better trucks! They could, but they purposely cut corners, because they know people will buy them regardless. There is no true competition except Toyota Tundra.
 
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: Silverado12
If I ever need a new truck, Ford will be the one not only for this but they have more American content than Chevy and Dodge.


Equal to the Toyota trucks, correct?


Who knows. I won't consider a foreign brand. The 'Muricans make better trucks anyway IMO. No reason to consider sending my money to Japan and using lower paid non-union workers in the manufacture.
While ford send MANY jobs overseas the "foreigns ' are building the stuff here - VW, Hyundai, Toyota, Nissan, BMW, MB. It matter where the FACTORY is not where the +/- goes. That all goes to the 0.1 percenters.
 
Originally Posted By: edyvw

Yes, I drove many trucks, from RAM, to Tundra. IMO their brakes cannot compare to cars because it comes to the question of price. Trucks are cheap, but it is required from them to do a lot. Business owners who need them are first looking at the sticker price and reliability, they do not want to know about braking distance 60-0 and similar stuff.
Point is, they decided not to built better trucks! They could, but they purposely cut corners, because they know people will buy them regardless. There is no true competition except Toyota Tundra.


Have you compared the brakes between a 1500 and 2500 series truck? I've found there's a BIG difference there.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: edyvw

Yes, I drove many trucks, from RAM, to Tundra. IMO their brakes cannot compare to cars because it comes to the question of price. Trucks are cheap, but it is required from them to do a lot. Business owners who need them are first looking at the sticker price and reliability, they do not want to know about braking distance 60-0 and similar stuff.
Point is, they decided not to built better trucks! They could, but they purposely cut corners, because they know people will buy them regardless. There is no true competition except Toyota Tundra.


Have you compared the brakes between a 1500 and 2500 series truck? I've found there's a BIG difference there.

The unbraked suggested trailer weight limits are still 1000-1500 lbs on 1500's and with 1000-1500 lb cargo capacities, in theory they don't need good brakes...
My uncle actually had a late 90's GM 2500 and it couldn't handle a camper on the back, brakes or suspension. It was probably 1800-2000lbs.
The new ones though I'm sure are better, but probably if you lapped them, they wouldn't have much different fade resistance compared to any regular car with 4 disk brakes. An Accord has about the same unbraked towing and cargo capacity as many pickups anyways but weighs 2/3's as much, so proportionally it should need better brakes.
 
Originally Posted By: edyvw
There is no true competition except Toyota Tundra.


Note that Tundra braking is virtually identical to RAM braking per Car & Driver tests. Ram did 199 feet and Tundra was 198. For comparison my sig car can easily do the same brake test at well under 150 feet, and Overkill's is a bit better than that.

Just changing out the [censored] Goodyear LRR tires on our RAM completely changed its roadholding, ride, and braking. I have yet to see a Tundra beat it in any way except imagined quality.
 
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: edyvw

Yes, I drove many trucks, from RAM, to Tundra. IMO their brakes cannot compare to cars because it comes to the question of price. Trucks are cheap, but it is required from them to do a lot. Business owners who need them are first looking at the sticker price and reliability, they do not want to know about braking distance 60-0 and similar stuff.
Point is, they decided not to built better trucks! They could, but they purposely cut corners, because they know people will buy them regardless. There is no true competition except Toyota Tundra.


Have you compared the brakes between a 1500 and 2500 series truck? I've found there's a BIG difference there.

The unbraked suggested trailer weight limits are still 1000-1500 lbs on 1500's and with 1000-1500 lb cargo capacities, in theory they don't need good brakes...
My uncle actually had a late 90's GM 2500 and it couldn't handle a camper on the back, brakes or suspension. It was probably 1800-2000lbs.
The new ones though I'm sure are better, but probably if you lapped them, they wouldn't have much different fade resistance compared to any regular car with 4 disk brakes. An Accord has about the same unbraked towing and cargo capacity as many pickups anyways but weighs 2/3's as much, so proportionally it should need better brakes.


Yes, the new ones are definitely better. The brakes on Jon's F-250 ('05) were absolutely fantastic and were quite confidence inspiring even when we were towing north of 13K of scrap. Definitely better than the brakes on his much newer ('14) F-150 FWIW.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Originally Posted By: edyvw
There is no true competition except Toyota Tundra.


Note that Tundra braking is virtually identical to RAM braking per Car & Driver tests. Ram did 199 feet and Tundra was 198. For comparison my sig car can easily do the same brake test at well under 150 feet, and Overkill's is a bit better than that.

Just changing out the [censored] Goodyear LRR tires on our RAM completely changed its roadholding, ride, and braking. I have yet to see a Tundra beat it in any way except imagined quality.


The way I took the comment was that there was no European competition (or Japanese) for the American trucks in the market other than the Tundra, not that the Tundra brakes were better than anybody else's
21.gif


I think his opinion is that this allows them to be complacent regarding braking performance in the 1/2 ton sector, unlike with cars where there are some rather striking Euro examples in the same class with markedly better stopping power.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
^^^ooopsie, my bad. Completely mis read his intent there. Apologies...

Yeah, I was referring to general competition on the market.
Truth is that lately American and Japanese manufacturers are paying more attention on this. My neighbor has 10yr old RAM 2500. I always stay amazed when I help him with some maintenance about ridiculous small size of those brakes for the size of the truck.
However, another neighbor has brand new Chevy SIlverado and that looks much more different, more serious.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I will say that even between the M5, which had big brakes, and the SRT-8, which also has big brakes, there is a noticeable difference in the ability to modulate, initial bite, consistency and general brake feel. And that's between two high-end cars. The Brembo kit is a heck of a lot more than a name and red paint, they are simply a much better product.


100% true.

It's not about stopping power at all. Though the upgraded brakes usually have bigger discs so I'd add temperature control aswell.
 
Originally Posted By: thescreensavers
Weight difference alone isn't just as black and white as you guys mention. Surely the 2500 vs 8000 lbs is an extreme example and will probably turn out how you guys are guessing but...

They tested a Crown Vic (Taxi) one simulated to be full of luggage and people(~1000+lbs heavier) and the other empty (just the driver)

Which one did better?

The empty Taxi fared better purely because the lighter taxi's frame was physically higher than the heaver taxi causing more intrusion damage to the heavier taxi.


it's the combined mass that matters, together with the speed at the time of collision. That determines the energy to be adsorbed.

So then it comes down to which part of the structures get hit, and how much energy those can adsorb. Could go either way depending on angles.
 
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