For all the Tom Brady haters

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Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
Seeing some of the comments in this thread reinforce the reasons why I choose not to be one of the legions of doltish football fans.

Agree wholeheartedly pops. Posting about things you proclaim not to care about on the internet is surely a more noble and productive use of ones time.

jeff

ps. I do like football, both to watch and play. The ball pressure "data" the NFL used has been conclusively debunked, so this is certainly a case as they say of the coverup being worse than the crime - because there is no evidence that the crime actually occurred. Circumstantial evidence only exists if there's an underlying crime, which in this case there is not.
 
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Anyone that hands over a phone to ANYONE for ANY reason is a moron. Yes, it's that simple! We all know that had he done so, pistures and emails would have been on TMZ in three days, tops.

And one more time, yet again, for the slow kids...

There is already an established penalty for using an underinflated football. That is an $8600 fine.

It is a personal vendetta, and anyone HONEST would admit it.



And what's the fine/penalty for a player doing everything in his power NOT to cooperate with an investigation? And if he did nothing wrong, why wouldn't he just cooperate?


One more time: Anyone that hands over a phone to ANYONE for ANY reason is a moron. Yes, it's that simple! We all know that had he done so, pictures and emails would have been on TMZ in three days, tops.


In a case where a person is being investigated for some type of wrong doings and information on that person's cell phone could contain evidence of those wrong doings, that person is obligated to reveal what's on the phone...refusing to do so is obstruction of justice...
 
Originally Posted By: greenjp
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
Seeing some of the comments in this thread reinforce the reasons why I choose not to be one of the legions of doltish football fans.

Agree wholeheartedly pops. Posting about things you proclaim not to care about on the internet is surely a more noble and productive use of ones time.

jeff

ps. I do like football, both to watch and play. The ball pressure "data" the NFL used has been conclusively debunked, so this is certainly a case as they say of the coverup being worse than the crime - because there is no evidence that the crime actually occurred. Circumstantial evidence only exists if there's an underlying crime, which in this case there is not.


This isn't a court case. Brady/Patriots violated league rules, which means the league has every right to take disciplinary actions...
 
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Anyone that hands over a phone to ANYONE for ANY reason is a moron. Yes, it's that simple! We all know that had he done so, pistures and emails would have been on TMZ in three days, tops.

And one more time, yet again, for the slow kids...

There is already an established penalty for using an underinflated football. That is an $8600 fine.

It is a personal vendetta, and anyone HONEST would admit it.



And what's the fine/penalty for a player doing everything in his power NOT to cooperate with an investigation? And if he did nothing wrong, why wouldn't he just cooperate?


One more time: Anyone that hands over a phone to ANYONE for ANY reason is a moron. Yes, it's that simple! We all know that had he done so, pictures and emails would have been on TMZ in three days, tops.


In a case where a person is being investigated for some type of wrong doings and information on that person's cell phone could contain evidence of those wrong doings, that person is obligated to reveal what's on the phone...refusing to do so is obstruction of justice...


Got a warrant? No? POUND SAND!
 
Originally Posted By: grampi
NHHEMI

NE fans are as bad as the Pats themselves as they don't care about the cheating...as long as they're winning, cheating is okay with them...


Don't forget that the Pats scored more points in that game in the second half (than the first half) when they used the regulation footballs. One member of the Colts said Brady and the Pats would have beat us if Brady was using a wet bar of soap.
 
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Got a warrant? No? POUND SAND!


Again, this isn't a court case. The NFL doesn't issue warrants. If you want to play in the NFL, you play by their rules or you find another profession...
 
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: grampi
NHHEMI

NE fans are as bad as the Pats themselves as they don't care about the cheating...as long as they're winning, cheating is okay with them...


Don't forget that the Pats scored more points in that game in the second half (than the first half) when they used the regulation footballs. One member of the Colts said Brady and the Pats would have beat us if Brady was using a wet bar of soap.


This is not even remotely relevant...cheating is cheating regardless of the results...
 
Originally Posted By: greenjp
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
Seeing some of the comments in this thread reinforce the reasons why I choose not to be one of the legions of doltish football fans.

Agree wholeheartedly pops. Posting about things you proclaim not to care about on the internet is surely a more noble and productive use of ones time.

jeff

ps. I do like football, both to watch and play. The ball pressure "data" the NFL used has been conclusively debunked, so this is certainly a case as they say of the coverup being worse than the crime - because there is no evidence that the crime actually occurred. Circumstantial evidence only exists if there's an underlying crime, which in this case there is not.


Actually, no it has not.

At the official inspection by the ref's prior to the game all of the Patriots' balls were set to the league minimum of 12.5 PSI except for 2 which were under and had to be inflated. So 9 started out at exactly 12.5 and 2 were at least 12.5( can't find what they set them to ).

NOTE - upon completion of the pre-game inspection by the ref's the balls are supposed to be stored in a secure location until released for game use. One of the Patriot attendants however is seen on video disappearing with the balls into a bathroom without cameras AFTER the official inspection by the ref's. He was in there for 90 seconds with them( more than enough time to let some air out ).

At halftime, once foul play was suspected with the balls, the ref's rechecked the PSI levels in the Patriot game balls; twice for each ball. There were multiple balls( 5 or 6 )that when tested were in the mid 10 to low 11 PSI range which mean even with the Ideal Gas Law(IGL) equation, working "ideally", that they were well below where the IGL would allow for. Some of the balls can be explained by the IGL( in an "ideal" scenario )but not all.

People need to remember here that during the game in question, when this deflategate fiasco started, the game time starting temp was in the 50's. It was a rainy and unseasonably warm( January after all )game. The temp stayed pretty consistent through halftime when the issue was addressed and properly inflated balls were used the rest of the game. People are acting like the balls came from a 90 degree building and were introduced into Lambeau Field like -10degree conditions. Just not the case. The balls came out of the building into very moderate temps.

Also, they were only used until halftime. It isn't like they were outside for 10 hours. 2-3 hours tops( accounting for them being brought out prior to start of game ). The IGL would have to work extremely fast to account for the drastic PSI drops. I just don't believe it truly effected the balls the way some claim. IF the temp was really cold maybe it would have some effect but it was too warm out. Imagine setting your tire PSI in a 70 degree garage and then pulling it into your driveway on a rainy( no sun to heat tire up )day for 3 hours. Do any of you believe the tire PSI would be any different let alone have dropped 1.5-2PSI? If you believe the IGL accounts for the Patriots' deflated balls then you have to believe the above with the tires.

Tires are too thick you say, so it would take longer to cool down and lose the PSI? Ok, then imagine cleaning the 70 degree garage on that 50 degree rainy day instead. 1st thing you do is set your kids bike and football outside( that just so happens to be at 12.5 PSI - what a coincidence
crackmeup2.gif
). 3 hours later when done you put the football back in the garage. Do you believe the PSI would have dropped at all let alone as far as to fall to 10.5-11.0 which is where 5-6 Patriot balls were at when remeasured? No, of course not. IT is foolish to think such a minor temp swing for just a couple hours would do that. Overnight or something maybe the PSI drops a bit but I just don't see it unless the temp difference is drastic and you need more than just a half of football.

Someone messed with the balls. The IGL, in real world application, just doesn't account for it.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle

One more time: Anyone that hands over a phone to ANYONE for ANY reason is a moron. Yes, it's that simple! We all know that had he done so, pictures and emails would have been on TMZ in three days, tops....

Got a warrant? No? POUND SAND!


Jaraxle;

You have to realize that Brady is bound by the NFL CBA and in the CBA they are required to comply with any league investigation. That includes turning over phone records. Look at any of the recent league investigations for wrong doing going back to Bounty Gate with the Saints and you will see phone records were used in all of them.

No warrant/court order is needed by the league to get them. This is not a criminal or even civil case being tried in our legal system( well it is now but I hope you see what I mean ). This is a private investigation that is governed by a union agreement. The league, under the CBA, can require Brady to turn over "league related" records and texts.

That is why Brady ultimately destroyed his phone IMO. He knew the league could force him to turn the records over if he didn't do it willingly. Destroy the phone and play dumb about it and you hide the info you are trying to. Just say no and keep the phone and that warrant/court order you want would be forthcoming.
 
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: grampi
NHHEMI

NE fans are as bad as the Pats themselves as they don't care about the cheating...as long as they're winning, cheating is okay with them...


Don't forget that the Pats scored more points in that game in the second half (than the first half) when they used the regulation footballs. One member of the Colts said Brady and the Pats would have beat us if Brady was using a wet bar of soap.


All true but what does it have to do with anything?

The Patriots( Brady )"tried" to cheat to gain an advantage. Their intent was to break the rules knowingly. Cheating is cheating even if you don't benefit from it. Rules were broken knowingly. Nuff said.
 
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: greenjp
The ball pressure "data" the NFL used has been conclusively debunked,


Actually, no it has not...

Au contraire. Your unfamiliarity with the science involved, and accompanying incorrect beliefs and assumptions notwithstanding, a simple check of the google for "deflategate debunked" will bring many articles and stories, ranging from 4th grade science experiments to independent scientists to an MIT professor who pretty clearly explain why the Wells report was bunk. Bad procedures, flawed assumptions, misapplication of science.

You have devoted far too many words on this subject to allow me to believe you'd actually consider arguments to the contrary of your own.

As to the outrage over the "attempted cheating" here, I've said in the past and I'll say again, there's "cheating" and there's "gamesmanship", and they coexist on a continuum. Every single play in football has uncalled penalties and over-dramatic reactions in an effort to get penalties called. To wave the flag so vigorously on this one, even if it were true which I believe it's not, just seems a little silly in the broader context. As some apocryphal NASCAR person once said, "if you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin". The level of outrage on this one just seems wildly out of proportion.

jeff
 
Originally Posted By: greenjp
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: greenjp
The ball pressure "data" the NFL used has been conclusively debunked,


Actually, no it has not...

Au contraire. Your unfamiliarity with the science involved, and accompanying incorrect beliefs and assumptions notwithstanding, a simple check of the google for "deflategate debunked" will bring many articles and stories, ranging from 4th grade science experiments to independent scientists to an MIT professor who pretty clearly explain why the Wells report was bunk. Bad procedures, flawed assumptions, misapplication of science.

You have devoted far too many words on this subject to allow me to believe you'd actually consider arguments to the contrary of your own.

As to the outrage over the "attempted cheating" here, I've said in the past and I'll say again, there's "cheating" and there's "gamesmanship", and they coexist on a continuum. Every single play in football has uncalled penalties and over-dramatic reactions in an effort to get penalties called. To wave the flag so vigorously on this one, even if it were true which I believe it's not, just seems a little silly in the broader context. As some apocryphal NASCAR person once said, "if you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin". The level of outrage on this one just seems wildly out of proportion.

jeff






You can blame Brady for that. Had he just cooperated from the beginning instead of lying, being uncooperative with investigators, and basically throwing a hissy fit the whole time, this entire mess would've been over with a long time ago. After all, if he's innocent, then he's got nothing to hide, right?
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: greenjp
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: greenjp
The ball pressure "data" the NFL used has been conclusively debunked,


Actually, no it has not...

Au contraire. Your unfamiliarity with the science involved, and accompanying incorrect beliefs and assumptions notwithstanding, a simple check of the google for "deflategate debunked" will bring many articles and stories, ranging from 4th grade science experiments to independent scientists to an MIT professor who pretty clearly explain why the Wells report was bunk. Bad procedures, flawed assumptions, misapplication of science.

You have devoted far too many words on this subject to allow me to believe you'd actually consider arguments to the contrary of your own.

As to the outrage over the "attempted cheating" here, I've said in the past and I'll say again, there's "cheating" and there's "gamesmanship", and they coexist on a continuum. Every single play in football has uncalled penalties and over-dramatic reactions in an effort to get penalties called. To wave the flag so vigorously on this one, even if it were true which I believe it's not, just seems a little silly in the broader context. As some apocryphal NASCAR person once said, "if you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin". The level of outrage on this one just seems wildly out of proportion.

jeff




I fully agree with you. So much nonsense.
 
Originally Posted By: greenjp
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: greenjp
The ball pressure "data" the NFL used has been conclusively debunked,


Actually, no it has not...

Au contraire. Your unfamiliarity with the science involved, and accompanying incorrect beliefs and assumptions notwithstanding, a simple check of the google for "deflategate debunked" will bring many articles and stories, ranging from 4th grade science experiments to independent scientists to an MIT professor who pretty clearly explain why the Wells report was bunk. Bad procedures, flawed assumptions, misapplication of science.

You have devoted far too many words on this subject to allow me to believe you'd actually consider arguments to the contrary of your own.

As to the outrage over the "attempted cheating" here, I've said in the past and I'll say again, there's "cheating" and there's "gamesmanship", and they coexist on a continuum. Every single play in football has uncalled penalties and over-dramatic reactions in an effort to get penalties called. To wave the flag so vigorously on this one, even if it were true which I believe it's not, just seems a little silly in the broader context. As some apocryphal NASCAR person once said, "if you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin". The level of outrage on this one just seems wildly out of proportion.

jeff




I don't doubt that the sliding scale of cheating vs. gamesmanship will have 47 different criteria that 47 people won't agree on. Like anything else, the folks who scream loudest for someone's innocence are usually the ones least offended by their guilt. The overriding factor is that the NFL has specific rules regarding inflation of the balls. They were apparently deflated to gain advantage in the sense that it's not a level playing field whether someone prefers them one way or another. Brady and the Patriots scoring more points with properly inflated balls as an argument to show that it doesn't matter is effing infantile. I would have more respect for Brady and the Patriots if they handled it in a manner that respected the rules that they agreed to rather than tacitly promoting a grey area of "everybody does it so you're good as long as you don't get caught" or the more pathetic idea of ascribing a sliding scale to whatever infraction these primadonna money whores who like to be thought of as role models can violate....placing a moral equivalency on this to flopping in soccer or looking for the flag when you did the interfering doesn't cut it.
 
Originally Posted By: greenjp
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI
Originally Posted By: greenjp
The ball pressure "data" the NFL used has been conclusively debunked,


Actually, no it has not...

Au contraire. Your unfamiliarity with the science involved, and accompanying incorrect beliefs and assumptions notwithstanding, a simple check of the google for "deflategate debunked" will bring many articles and stories, ranging from 4th grade science experiments to independent scientists to an MIT professor who pretty clearly explain why the Wells report was bunk. Bad procedures, flawed assumptions, misapplication of science.

You have devoted far too many words on this subject to allow me to believe you'd actually consider arguments to the contrary of your own.

As to the outrage over the "attempted cheating" here, I've said in the past and I'll say again, there's "cheating" and there's "gamesmanship", and they coexist on a continuum. Every single play in football has uncalled penalties and over-dramatic reactions in an effort to get penalties called. To wave the flag so vigorously on this one, even if it were true which I believe it's not, just seems a little silly in the broader context. As some apocryphal NASCAR person once said, "if you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin". The level of outrage on this one just seems wildly out of proportion.

jeff




I am well aware of the science involved. Thanks. I am not making assumptions. I am going by the info provided and what facts we know. The balls that had their PSI drop into the low 11's and into the mid 10's are not explained away by science and the effect of temperature on gasses. The darn day in question was just not cold enough to have the temp play into things to the extent so many try and make it. I challenge anyone who thinks it does once more to take a football at 12.5PSI from a 70 degree room and put it outside on a 50 degree day( not in the bright sun or the darkest shade )and leave it there for 3 hours. Then bring it back in and measure the PSI. See if drops to 10.5-11PSI? I would be amazed if it went much below 12 if it even really dropped. Not enough of a temp difference nor enough time.

I will also point out that there have been scientists who defend the NFL saying the balls were manually deflated and that the temp does not explain their low PSI. There are varying scientific opinions on it just as there are fan opinions. Deflategate has not been debunked. Sorry but that is incorrect. It has only been debunked if you cherry pick the reports that say so and ignore the ones that support the NFL.

I am always willing to listen to reasonable, and rational, discussion that differs from my own. Not a lot of that here at BITOG though usually. People here can't disagree civilly. Name calling and insults have to be added. So post away if you feel you can explain what happened and show Brady is innocent in a civil manner and I will respond in kind.

As far as your comments about outrage over cheating. There is a rule on the books about the ball PSI and how the balls are to be handled by the teams. IMO the team and Brady broke those rules knowingly and purposely. It was done to try and gain an advantage. So he cheated by definition. I think the level of outrage for so many, myself included, has risen so far because of the lengths he is going to in an attempt to try and cover it up PLUS there is all of the past cheating and rule bending by the team. Not only did he cheat but IMO he is a liar as well. Add on destroying evidence and it shows me he has no character at all.

As I have repeatedly said if he just owned up to it in the 1st place it would have been a small fine and maybe 1 game( for repeat offenses ). The whole thing has gotten out of hand because of the actions of the team and Brady's actions.

It is a sad state of affairs IMO when people use that old saying about you aren't trying if you aren't cheating. I disagree with that 100%. I was raised better than that and I have always tried to be stand up. If you think getting away with what you can is okay then that is on you and your conscience. I do not believe in cheating small or big. Wrong is wrong.

JM2C
 
Originally Posted By: NHHEMI


JM2C


Is that what you call it. 2 cents?

I don't even bother to read your stuff anymore. You'd think he had done something serious the way you go on and on and on. Plenty of players beat women, kill people and injure on purpose. But you don't get worked up about that.
 
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