All there has to be is a volume of oil above the oil level in the sump to cause the possibility of oil draining back to the sump. Any oil located in the engine above the oil sump level will naturally try to drain back to the sump by gravity if the flow path makes it possible. A leaky ADBV in the case of this Ford 4.2L would at least allow the oil galleries above the filter to drain out.
MC FL-400S, Problem?
- Thread starter BlueOvalFitter
- Start date
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Originally Posted By: Plawan
The weight of the oil above the filter would have to be greater than the weight of the oil below the filter to cause a reverse flow through the filter. Its very easy to see that this is not the case here. A suction would have to pull from above the oil below the filter in, obviously, the opposite direction of the oil above the filter for for suction to cause a reverse flow through the filter. Thats clearly not the case either. So even if the adnv wasnt sealing, in this case it wouldnt matter.
So the adbv is not the coporate here.
Correct.
The weight of the oil above the filter would have to be greater than the weight of the oil below the filter to cause a reverse flow through the filter. Its very easy to see that this is not the case here. A suction would have to pull from above the oil below the filter in, obviously, the opposite direction of the oil above the filter for for suction to cause a reverse flow through the filter. Thats clearly not the case either. So even if the adnv wasnt sealing, in this case it wouldnt matter.
So the adbv is not the coporate here.
Correct.
Originally Posted By: Plawan
The weight of the oil above the filter would have to be greater than the weight of the oil below the filter to cause a reverse flow through the filter. Its very easy to see that this is not the case here. A suction would have to pull from above the oil below the filter in, obviously, the opposite direction of the oil above the filter for for suction to cause a reverse flow through the filter. Thats clearly not the case either. So even if the adnv wasnt sealing, in this case it wouldnt matter.
So the adbv is not the coporate here.
Plawan, why do you think there was very little oil, almost none, upon the breaking of the filter to base seal? As I have stated before, there has ALWAYS been an immediate rush of oil flowing from the filter when the seal is broken/filter un-loosened (If that's even a word
).
I guess for the time being we can only speculate until I cut the filter open.
The weight of the oil above the filter would have to be greater than the weight of the oil below the filter to cause a reverse flow through the filter. Its very easy to see that this is not the case here. A suction would have to pull from above the oil below the filter in, obviously, the opposite direction of the oil above the filter for for suction to cause a reverse flow through the filter. Thats clearly not the case either. So even if the adnv wasnt sealing, in this case it wouldnt matter.
So the adbv is not the coporate here.
Plawan, why do you think there was very little oil, almost none, upon the breaking of the filter to base seal? As I have stated before, there has ALWAYS been an immediate rush of oil flowing from the filter when the seal is broken/filter un-loosened (If that's even a word
I guess for the time being we can only speculate until I cut the filter open.
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Plawan
The weight of the oil above the filter would have to be greater than the weight of the oil below the filter to cause a reverse flow through the filter. Its very easy to see that this is not the case here. A suction would have to pull from above the oil below the filter in, obviously, the opposite direction of the oil above the filter for for suction to cause a reverse flow through the filter. Thats clearly not the case either. So even if the adnv wasnt sealing, in this case it wouldnt matter.
So the adbv is not the coporate here.
Correct.
Not really, because it's just a simple case that all the oil volume above the oil level in the sump is trying to drain back down to the sump level. The only thing preventing that from happening is the ADBV in the filter. The oil can still drain out of the oil galleries above the sump, while still keep the filter full when the filter is orientated at 45 deg angle like BOF showed in his first post. WellOiled mentioned the same thing earlier.
Originally Posted By: Plawan
The weight of the oil above the filter would have to be greater than the weight of the oil below the filter to cause a reverse flow through the filter. Its very easy to see that this is not the case here. A suction would have to pull from above the oil below the filter in, obviously, the opposite direction of the oil above the filter for for suction to cause a reverse flow through the filter. Thats clearly not the case either. So even if the adnv wasnt sealing, in this case it wouldnt matter.
So the adbv is not the coporate here.
Correct.
Not really, because it's just a simple case that all the oil volume above the oil level in the sump is trying to drain back down to the sump level. The only thing preventing that from happening is the ADBV in the filter. The oil can still drain out of the oil galleries above the sump, while still keep the filter full when the filter is orientated at 45 deg angle like BOF showed in his first post. WellOiled mentioned the same thing earlier.
I changed oil this morning on 2004 Ford Ranger 4L V6. After a 3-4 minute warm up, I removed the filter: there was about 3 oz in the drain pan which presumably came from above the filter. Another 0.5 oz is in the shop towel used to clean oil from the body parts. I was careful not to tip the filter.
Out: MS5K 5W30 and AC Delco PF1250. No startup rattle was observed with this combo. OCI/FCI 4900 miles. No makeup oil added.
In: MC Premium synth blend 5W30 and WIX 51372. It took maybe 3 seconds to fill the filter and galleries. As noted from the startup rattle ceasing. I think I will fill the filter next time.
Out: MS5K 5W30 and AC Delco PF1250. No startup rattle was observed with this combo. OCI/FCI 4900 miles. No makeup oil added.
In: MC Premium synth blend 5W30 and WIX 51372. It took maybe 3 seconds to fill the filter and galleries. As noted from the startup rattle ceasing. I think I will fill the filter next time.
Originally Posted By: WellOiled
I changed oil this morning on 2004 Ford Ranger 4L V6. After a 3-4 minute warm up, I removed the filter: there was about 3 oz in the drain pan which presumably came from above the filter. Another 0.5 oz is in the shop towel used to clean oil from the body parts. I was careful not to tip the filter.
Out: MS5K 5W30 and AC Delco PF1250. No startup rattle was observed with this combo. OCI/FCI 4900 miles. No makeup oil added.
In: MC Premium synth blend 5W30 and WIX 51372. It took maybe 3 seconds to fill the filter and galleries. As noted from the startup rattle ceasing. I think I will fill the filter next time.
I have always filled the oil filter with oil before installing it. There was a post on this forum about this. It got kind of heated at times.
I changed oil this morning on 2004 Ford Ranger 4L V6. After a 3-4 minute warm up, I removed the filter: there was about 3 oz in the drain pan which presumably came from above the filter. Another 0.5 oz is in the shop towel used to clean oil from the body parts. I was careful not to tip the filter.
Out: MS5K 5W30 and AC Delco PF1250. No startup rattle was observed with this combo. OCI/FCI 4900 miles. No makeup oil added.
In: MC Premium synth blend 5W30 and WIX 51372. It took maybe 3 seconds to fill the filter and galleries. As noted from the startup rattle ceasing. I think I will fill the filter next time.
I have always filled the oil filter with oil before installing it. There was a post on this forum about this. It got kind of heated at times.
Originally Posted By: WellOiled
Garak - I agree some oil circuit configurations need the best ADBV function and some don't. Also the engine is not going to grenade if you don't have ADBV function.
Yes, that's absolutely true. Back when my LTD with the 2.3 L was new, the specified filter was the Motorcraft CFL1. The engine had a sideways filter and was noisy at cold starts without an ADBV; an ADBV made things much nicer. The CFL1, however, had no ADBV. The FL1A was the more expensive option, advertised as a long life filter at the time, and had an ADBV.
In current terms, Wix and Motorcraft and darn near everyone else will specify a filter with the ADBV for that vehicle. At the time, though, it was only an option, and that covered a wide variety of Ford vehicles.
After that experience, that's one of the reasons I'm just happy to have an ADBV at all, and not fuss excessively over whether it's silicone or nitrile.
Garak - I agree some oil circuit configurations need the best ADBV function and some don't. Also the engine is not going to grenade if you don't have ADBV function.
Yes, that's absolutely true. Back when my LTD with the 2.3 L was new, the specified filter was the Motorcraft CFL1. The engine had a sideways filter and was noisy at cold starts without an ADBV; an ADBV made things much nicer. The CFL1, however, had no ADBV. The FL1A was the more expensive option, advertised as a long life filter at the time, and had an ADBV.
In current terms, Wix and Motorcraft and darn near everyone else will specify a filter with the ADBV for that vehicle. At the time, though, it was only an option, and that covered a wide variety of Ford vehicles.
After that experience, that's one of the reasons I'm just happy to have an ADBV at all, and not fuss excessively over whether it's silicone or nitrile.
Originally Posted By: CT8
Originally Posted By: WellOiled
Not true. A working ADBV will keep the galleries full above the filter. There is quite a bit of oil in there.
How? given time the oil will leak out of all the bearings.
I don't think oil will drain out of the galleries through the bearings as long as the ADBV is stopping flow in both directions, and the 'vacuum' is maintained in the system.
In the thread link below, I tested the ADBV on a PL14459. It sat base down in a funnel with the main hole totally open for a whole week, and none of the oil between the can and the center tube drained out until I opened up the ADBV with some Q-tips, which broke the 'vacuum seal' so to speak. If I would have punched a hole in the dome end of the filter, it would have made it drain too.
ADBV Test Info [Link]
Originally Posted By: WellOiled
Not true. A working ADBV will keep the galleries full above the filter. There is quite a bit of oil in there.
How? given time the oil will leak out of all the bearings.
I don't think oil will drain out of the galleries through the bearings as long as the ADBV is stopping flow in both directions, and the 'vacuum' is maintained in the system.
In the thread link below, I tested the ADBV on a PL14459. It sat base down in a funnel with the main hole totally open for a whole week, and none of the oil between the can and the center tube drained out until I opened up the ADBV with some Q-tips, which broke the 'vacuum seal' so to speak. If I would have punched a hole in the dome end of the filter, it would have made it drain too.
ADBV Test Info [Link]
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: CT8
Originally Posted By: WellOiled
Not true. A working ADBV will keep the galleries full above the filter. There is quite a bit of oil in there.
How? given time the oil will leak out of all the bearings.
I don't think oil will drain out of the galleries through the bearings as long as the ADBV is stopping flow in both directions, and the 'vacuum' is maintained in the system.
In the thread link below, I tested the ADBV on a PL14459. It sat base down in a funnel with the main hole totally open for a whole week, and none of the oil between the can and the center tube drained out until I opened up the ADBV with some Q-tips, which broke the 'vacuum seal' so to speak. If I would have punched a hole in the dome end of the filter, it would have made it drain too.
ADBV Test Info [Link]
ZeeOSix - nice write up in your link. I wanted to see how well the FL820S silicone ADBV would hold oil. I kept one in my oil drain pan with base down for maybe 18 months. When I cut the filter open, it was over half full between the can and the OD of the media.
Conclusion silicone ADBV holds oil very well.
CT8 - the weight of the oil above sump level maintains pressure on the ADBV and keeps it closed. The bearings are not likely to leak much under this low pressure.
Originally Posted By: CT8
Originally Posted By: WellOiled
Not true. A working ADBV will keep the galleries full above the filter. There is quite a bit of oil in there.
How? given time the oil will leak out of all the bearings.
I don't think oil will drain out of the galleries through the bearings as long as the ADBV is stopping flow in both directions, and the 'vacuum' is maintained in the system.
In the thread link below, I tested the ADBV on a PL14459. It sat base down in a funnel with the main hole totally open for a whole week, and none of the oil between the can and the center tube drained out until I opened up the ADBV with some Q-tips, which broke the 'vacuum seal' so to speak. If I would have punched a hole in the dome end of the filter, it would have made it drain too.
ADBV Test Info [Link]
ZeeOSix - nice write up in your link. I wanted to see how well the FL820S silicone ADBV would hold oil. I kept one in my oil drain pan with base down for maybe 18 months. When I cut the filter open, it was over half full between the can and the OD of the media.
Conclusion silicone ADBV holds oil very well.
CT8 - the weight of the oil above sump level maintains pressure on the ADBV and keeps it closed. The bearings are not likely to leak much under this low pressure.
The ADBV is not the only place oil can siphon back into the engine. If the seal between the gasket-retainer cover plate and the threaded plate is missing or incomplete, oil can & will leak through the gap (esp. nice hot thin oil like when you shut your engine off after a drive). There needs to be some type of sealing agent or glue in between the threaded plate an gasket cover, and it needs to stay put. If there is no sealer, or if the plates can move independently of one another, oil will easily pass through the void.
Purolater (aka: Tear-orlator) does not weld the gasket plate to the threaded plate and have been known to have issues with drainback and with installation. They "stake" the cover plate through the holes of the threaded plate. They tried to save some pennies by skipping the weld part. All the other major filter makers weld the plates together (usually spot welds).
Then the installation issue with the non-welded design is when there is some "give" to the gasket plate because its not fully seated. So when you're installing the filter on the engine, you THINK you found the point where the gasket touches and then give it its 3/4-1 turn. But what's really happening is the gasket is not really compressing -- the cover-plate is seating. So you get like 1/2-turn instead of 3/4-1. DUMB!
Purolater (aka: Tear-orlator) does not weld the gasket plate to the threaded plate and have been known to have issues with drainback and with installation. They "stake" the cover plate through the holes of the threaded plate. They tried to save some pennies by skipping the weld part. All the other major filter makers weld the plates together (usually spot welds).
Then the installation issue with the non-welded design is when there is some "give" to the gasket plate because its not fully seated. So when you're installing the filter on the engine, you THINK you found the point where the gasket touches and then give it its 3/4-1 turn. But what's really happening is the gasket is not really compressing -- the cover-plate is seating. So you get like 1/2-turn instead of 3/4-1. DUMB!
Originally Posted By: DudeNiceRide
The ADBV is not the only place oil can siphon back into the engine. If the seal between the gasket-retainer cover plate and the threaded plate is missing or incomplete, oil can & will leak through the gap (esp. nice hot thin oil like when you shut your engine off after a drive). There needs to be some type of sealing agent or glue in between the threaded plate an gasket cover, and it needs to stay put. If there is no sealer, or if the plates can move independently of one another, oil will easily pass through the void.
Purolater (aka: Tear-orlator) does not weld the gasket plate to the threaded plate and have been known to have issues with drainback and with installation. They "stake" the cover plate through the holes of the threaded plate. They tried to save some pennies by skipping the weld part. All the other major filter makers weld the plates together (usually spot welds).
Then the installation issue with the non-welded design is when there is some "give" to the gasket plate because its not fully seated. So when you're installing the filter on the engine, you THINK you found the point where the gasket touches and then give it its 3/4-1 turn. But what's really happening is the gasket is not really compressing -- the cover-plate is seating. So you get like 1/2-turn instead of 3/4-1. DUMB!
DudeNiceRide - Thanks. I had not thought of that. I see another FL-400S has been reported with compromised ADBV function. It is starting to look like we have another Purolator issue impacting Motorcraft filters.
The ADBV is not the only place oil can siphon back into the engine. If the seal between the gasket-retainer cover plate and the threaded plate is missing or incomplete, oil can & will leak through the gap (esp. nice hot thin oil like when you shut your engine off after a drive). There needs to be some type of sealing agent or glue in between the threaded plate an gasket cover, and it needs to stay put. If there is no sealer, or if the plates can move independently of one another, oil will easily pass through the void.
Purolater (aka: Tear-orlator) does not weld the gasket plate to the threaded plate and have been known to have issues with drainback and with installation. They "stake" the cover plate through the holes of the threaded plate. They tried to save some pennies by skipping the weld part. All the other major filter makers weld the plates together (usually spot welds).
Then the installation issue with the non-welded design is when there is some "give" to the gasket plate because its not fully seated. So when you're installing the filter on the engine, you THINK you found the point where the gasket touches and then give it its 3/4-1 turn. But what's really happening is the gasket is not really compressing -- the cover-plate is seating. So you get like 1/2-turn instead of 3/4-1. DUMB!
DudeNiceRide - Thanks. I had not thought of that. I see another FL-400S has been reported with compromised ADBV function. It is starting to look like we have another Purolator issue impacting Motorcraft filters.
Originally Posted By: DudeNiceRide
The ADBV is not the only place oil can siphon back into the engine. If the seal between the gasket-retainer cover plate and the threaded plate is missing or incomplete, oil can & will leak through the gap (esp. nice hot thin oil like when you shut your engine off after a drive). There needs to be some type of sealing agent or glue in between the threaded plate an gasket cover, and it needs to stay put. If there is no sealer, or if the plates can move independently of one another, oil will easily pass through the void.
Purolater (aka: Tear-orlator) does not weld the gasket plate to the threaded plate and have been known to have issues with drainback and with installation. They "stake" the cover plate through the holes of the threaded plate. They tried to save some pennies by skipping the weld part. All the other major filter makers weld the plates together (usually spot welds).
Then the installation issue with the non-welded design is when there is some "give" to the gasket plate because its not fully seated. So when you're installing the filter on the engine, you THINK you found the point where the gasket touches and then give it its 3/4-1 turn. But what's really happening is the gasket is not really compressing -- the cover-plate is seating. So you get like 1/2-turn instead of 3/4-1. DUMB!
DNR, I did some research about whereas you stated the Purolator brand filters are staked instead of spot welded and you are correct! Nice observation there sir! I can see why my filter may have faied from this theory/problem.
I did not get to check out the new line of Purolator filters. Have they used the same assembly procedure on them as well?
The ADBV is not the only place oil can siphon back into the engine. If the seal between the gasket-retainer cover plate and the threaded plate is missing or incomplete, oil can & will leak through the gap (esp. nice hot thin oil like when you shut your engine off after a drive). There needs to be some type of sealing agent or glue in between the threaded plate an gasket cover, and it needs to stay put. If there is no sealer, or if the plates can move independently of one another, oil will easily pass through the void.
Purolater (aka: Tear-orlator) does not weld the gasket plate to the threaded plate and have been known to have issues with drainback and with installation. They "stake" the cover plate through the holes of the threaded plate. They tried to save some pennies by skipping the weld part. All the other major filter makers weld the plates together (usually spot welds).
Then the installation issue with the non-welded design is when there is some "give" to the gasket plate because its not fully seated. So when you're installing the filter on the engine, you THINK you found the point where the gasket touches and then give it its 3/4-1 turn. But what's really happening is the gasket is not really compressing -- the cover-plate is seating. So you get like 1/2-turn instead of 3/4-1. DUMB!
DNR, I did some research about whereas you stated the Purolator brand filters are staked instead of spot welded and you are correct! Nice observation there sir! I can see why my filter may have faied from this theory/problem.
I did not get to check out the new line of Purolator filters. Have they used the same assembly procedure on them as well?
Originally Posted By: DudeNiceRide
The ADBV is not the only place oil can siphon back into the engine. If the seal between the gasket-retainer cover plate and the threaded plate is missing or incomplete, oil can & will leak through the gap (esp. nice hot thin oil like when you shut your engine off after a drive). There needs to be some type of sealing agent or glue in between the threaded plate an gasket cover, and it needs to stay put. If there is no sealer, or if the plates can move independently of one another, oil will easily pass through the void.
Purolater (aka: Tear-orlator) does not weld the gasket plate to the threaded plate and have been known to have issues with drainback and with installation. They "stake" the cover plate through the holes of the threaded plate. They tried to save some pennies by skipping the weld part. All the other major filter makers weld the plates together (usually spot welds).
Then the installation issue with the non-welded design is when there is some "give" to the gasket plate because its not fully seated. So when you're installing the filter on the engine, you THINK you found the point where the gasket touches and then give it its 3/4-1 turn. But what's really happening is the gasket is not really compressing -- the cover-plate is seating. So you get like 1/2-turn instead of 3/4-1. DUMB!
Guess I don't see how the leakage path could exist as you've described in the red text above. The ADBV (if working correctly) should still seal the base plate's oil inlet holes on the threaded base plate and prevent any oil from back flowing through the filter. Maybe someone can come up with a sketch showing a cross section of the base plate and the leakage flow path.
Imagine the filter is built with a one-piece base plate - seems it doesn't matter if there is another 'gasket holding plate' over the top of the main base plate because the ADBV seals on the inside surface of the main base plate. When an oil filter is installed tightly onto the engine, there is a sufficient seal between the base plate threads and threaded mounting spud to prevent any leakage if that is the path you assume the oil to be taking.
The ADBV is not the only place oil can siphon back into the engine. If the seal between the gasket-retainer cover plate and the threaded plate is missing or incomplete, oil can & will leak through the gap (esp. nice hot thin oil like when you shut your engine off after a drive). There needs to be some type of sealing agent or glue in between the threaded plate an gasket cover, and it needs to stay put. If there is no sealer, or if the plates can move independently of one another, oil will easily pass through the void.
Purolater (aka: Tear-orlator) does not weld the gasket plate to the threaded plate and have been known to have issues with drainback and with installation. They "stake" the cover plate through the holes of the threaded plate. They tried to save some pennies by skipping the weld part. All the other major filter makers weld the plates together (usually spot welds).
Then the installation issue with the non-welded design is when there is some "give" to the gasket plate because its not fully seated. So when you're installing the filter on the engine, you THINK you found the point where the gasket touches and then give it its 3/4-1 turn. But what's really happening is the gasket is not really compressing -- the cover-plate is seating. So you get like 1/2-turn instead of 3/4-1. DUMB!
Guess I don't see how the leakage path could exist as you've described in the red text above. The ADBV (if working correctly) should still seal the base plate's oil inlet holes on the threaded base plate and prevent any oil from back flowing through the filter. Maybe someone can come up with a sketch showing a cross section of the base plate and the leakage flow path.
Imagine the filter is built with a one-piece base plate - seems it doesn't matter if there is another 'gasket holding plate' over the top of the main base plate because the ADBV seals on the inside surface of the main base plate. When an oil filter is installed tightly onto the engine, there is a sufficient seal between the base plate threads and threaded mounting spud to prevent any leakage if that is the path you assume the oil to be taking.
this is why japan filter usually have round seal! it deform into an impossibility to leak and can only turn on its self .if a square seal try this it will tear
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: DudeNiceRide
The ADBV is not the only place oil can siphon back into the engine. If the seal between the gasket-retainer cover plate and the threaded plate is missing or incomplete, oil can & will leak through the gap (esp. nice hot thin oil like when you shut your engine off after a drive). There needs to be some type of sealing agent or glue in between the threaded plate an gasket cover, and it needs to stay put. If there is no sealer, or if the plates can move independently of one another, oil will easily pass through the void.
Purolater (aka: Tear-orlator) does not weld the gasket plate to the threaded plate and have been known to have issues with drainback and with installation. They "stake" the cover plate through the holes of the threaded plate. They tried to save some pennies by skipping the weld part. All the other major filter makers weld the plates together (usually spot welds).
Then the installation issue with the non-welded design is when there is some "give" to the gasket plate because its not fully seated. So when you're installing the filter on the engine, you THINK you found the point where the gasket touches and then give it its 3/4-1 turn. But what's really happening is the gasket is not really compressing -- the cover-plate is seating. So you get like 1/2-turn instead of 3/4-1. DUMB!
Guess I don't see how the leakage path could exist as you've described in the red text above. The ADBV (if working correctly) should still seal the base plate's oil inlet holes on the threaded base plate and prevent any oil from back flowing through the filter. Maybe someone can come up with a sketch showing a cross section of the base plate and the leakage flow path.
Imagine the filter is built with a one-piece base plate - seems it doesn't matter if there is another 'gasket holding plate' over the top of the main base plate because the ADBV seals on the inside surface of the main base plate. When an oil filter is installed tightly onto the engine, there is a sufficient seal between the base plate threads and threaded mounting spud to prevent any leakage if that is the path you assume the oil to be taking.
ZeeOSix - Sorry for the lack of quality on the sketch but this is what I have to work with.
Last night I took a look at some of the new filters that I had cut. The tapping plate is separate and distinct from what we see on the exterior of the base. In the case of a MC FL820S, there is a ring of spot welds under the gasket. If the tapping plate and the auxiliary base plate are not in intimate contact, a leakage path exists. The ADBV could be perfect and we still could have a leak in this area. The fine hand drawn line would be the oil path. Drawing not to scale.
Originally Posted By: DudeNiceRide
The ADBV is not the only place oil can siphon back into the engine. If the seal between the gasket-retainer cover plate and the threaded plate is missing or incomplete, oil can & will leak through the gap (esp. nice hot thin oil like when you shut your engine off after a drive). There needs to be some type of sealing agent or glue in between the threaded plate an gasket cover, and it needs to stay put. If there is no sealer, or if the plates can move independently of one another, oil will easily pass through the void.
Purolater (aka: Tear-orlator) does not weld the gasket plate to the threaded plate and have been known to have issues with drainback and with installation. They "stake" the cover plate through the holes of the threaded plate. They tried to save some pennies by skipping the weld part. All the other major filter makers weld the plates together (usually spot welds).
Then the installation issue with the non-welded design is when there is some "give" to the gasket plate because its not fully seated. So when you're installing the filter on the engine, you THINK you found the point where the gasket touches and then give it its 3/4-1 turn. But what's really happening is the gasket is not really compressing -- the cover-plate is seating. So you get like 1/2-turn instead of 3/4-1. DUMB!
Guess I don't see how the leakage path could exist as you've described in the red text above. The ADBV (if working correctly) should still seal the base plate's oil inlet holes on the threaded base plate and prevent any oil from back flowing through the filter. Maybe someone can come up with a sketch showing a cross section of the base plate and the leakage flow path.
Imagine the filter is built with a one-piece base plate - seems it doesn't matter if there is another 'gasket holding plate' over the top of the main base plate because the ADBV seals on the inside surface of the main base plate. When an oil filter is installed tightly onto the engine, there is a sufficient seal between the base plate threads and threaded mounting spud to prevent any leakage if that is the path you assume the oil to be taking.
ZeeOSix - Sorry for the lack of quality on the sketch but this is what I have to work with.
Last night I took a look at some of the new filters that I had cut. The tapping plate is separate and distinct from what we see on the exterior of the base. In the case of a MC FL820S, there is a ring of spot welds under the gasket. If the tapping plate and the auxiliary base plate are not in intimate contact, a leakage path exists. The ADBV could be perfect and we still could have a leak in this area. The fine hand drawn line would be the oil path. Drawing not to scale.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: WellOiled
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: DudeNiceRide
The ADBV is not the only place oil can siphon back into the engine. If the seal between the gasket-retainer cover plate and the threaded plate is missing or incomplete, oil can & will leak through the gap (esp. nice hot thin oil like when you shut your engine off after a drive). There needs to be some type of sealing agent or glue in between the threaded plate an gasket cover, and it needs to stay put. If there is no sealer, or if the plates can move independently of one another, oil will easily pass through the void.
Purolater (aka: Tear-orlator) does not weld the gasket plate to the threaded plate and have been known to have issues with drainback and with installation. They "stake" the cover plate through the holes of the threaded plate. They tried to save some pennies by skipping the weld part. All the other major filter makers weld the plates together (usually spot welds).
Then the installation issue with the non-welded design is when there is some "give" to the gasket plate because its not fully seated. So when you're installing the filter on the engine, you THINK you found the point where the gasket touches and then give it its 3/4-1 turn. But what's really happening is the gasket is not really compressing -- the cover-plate is seating. So you get like 1/2-turn instead of 3/4-1. DUMB!
Guess I don't see how the leakage path could exist as you've described in the red text above. The ADBV (if working correctly) should still seal the base plate's oil inlet holes on the threaded base plate and prevent any oil from back flowing through the filter. Maybe someone can come up with a sketch showing a cross section of the base plate and the leakage flow path.
Imagine the filter is built with a one-piece base plate - seems it doesn't matter if there is another 'gasket holding plate' over the top of the main base plate because the ADBV seals on the inside surface of the main base plate. When an oil filter is installed tightly onto the engine, there is a sufficient seal between the base plate threads and threaded mounting spud to prevent any leakage if that is the path you assume the oil to be taking.
ZeeOSix - Sorry for the lack of quality on the sketch but this is what I have to work with.
Last night I took a look at some of the new filters that I had cut. The tapping plate is separate and distinct from what we see on the exterior of the base. In the case of a MC FL820S, there is a ring of spot welds under the gasket. If the tapping plate and the auxiliary base plate are not in intimate contact, a leakage path exists. The ADBV could be perfect and we still could have a leak in this area. The find hand drawn line would be the oil path. Drawing not to scale.
WO, I see what you're talking about. And, in theory, I CAN see this happening.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: DudeNiceRide
The ADBV is not the only place oil can siphon back into the engine. If the seal between the gasket-retainer cover plate and the threaded plate is missing or incomplete, oil can & will leak through the gap (esp. nice hot thin oil like when you shut your engine off after a drive). There needs to be some type of sealing agent or glue in between the threaded plate an gasket cover, and it needs to stay put. If there is no sealer, or if the plates can move independently of one another, oil will easily pass through the void.
Purolater (aka: Tear-orlator) does not weld the gasket plate to the threaded plate and have been known to have issues with drainback and with installation. They "stake" the cover plate through the holes of the threaded plate. They tried to save some pennies by skipping the weld part. All the other major filter makers weld the plates together (usually spot welds).
Then the installation issue with the non-welded design is when there is some "give" to the gasket plate because its not fully seated. So when you're installing the filter on the engine, you THINK you found the point where the gasket touches and then give it its 3/4-1 turn. But what's really happening is the gasket is not really compressing -- the cover-plate is seating. So you get like 1/2-turn instead of 3/4-1. DUMB!
Guess I don't see how the leakage path could exist as you've described in the red text above. The ADBV (if working correctly) should still seal the base plate's oil inlet holes on the threaded base plate and prevent any oil from back flowing through the filter. Maybe someone can come up with a sketch showing a cross section of the base plate and the leakage flow path.
Imagine the filter is built with a one-piece base plate - seems it doesn't matter if there is another 'gasket holding plate' over the top of the main base plate because the ADBV seals on the inside surface of the main base plate. When an oil filter is installed tightly onto the engine, there is a sufficient seal between the base plate threads and threaded mounting spud to prevent any leakage if that is the path you assume the oil to be taking.
ZeeOSix - Sorry for the lack of quality on the sketch but this is what I have to work with.
Last night I took a look at some of the new filters that I had cut. The tapping plate is separate and distinct from what we see on the exterior of the base. In the case of a MC FL820S, there is a ring of spot welds under the gasket. If the tapping plate and the auxiliary base plate are not in intimate contact, a leakage path exists. The ADBV could be perfect and we still could have a leak in this area. The find hand drawn line would be the oil path. Drawing not to scale.
WO, I see what you're talking about. And, in theory, I CAN see this happening.
BOF - Fortunately, there are many options for Ford owners. It looks like you are running one of them.
WellOiled - thanks for the sketch, I see what you mean now. However, in order for that to be a leak path the workmanship would have to be pretty bad to leave big enough gaps along that path to cause leakage when the engine was off.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
WellOiled - thanks for the sketch, I see what you mean now. However, in order for that to be a leak path the workmanship would have to be pretty bad to leave big enough gaps along that path to cause leakage when the engine was off.
ZeeOSix - You are welcome. We are speaking about Purolator manufacturing Motorcraft filters.
Neither Motorcraft nor Purolator seems to care. I went to look for feedback on my reported torn FL820S. Nothing. The dealership even deleted my email to them.
DudeNiceRide made a point that Purolator does not spot weld their tapping plate to the external plate. I will have to check this out later.
WellOiled - thanks for the sketch, I see what you mean now. However, in order for that to be a leak path the workmanship would have to be pretty bad to leave big enough gaps along that path to cause leakage when the engine was off.
ZeeOSix - You are welcome. We are speaking about Purolator manufacturing Motorcraft filters.
Neither Motorcraft nor Purolator seems to care. I went to look for feedback on my reported torn FL820S. Nothing. The dealership even deleted my email to them.
DudeNiceRide made a point that Purolator does not spot weld their tapping plate to the external plate. I will have to check this out later.
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