just noticed something I wanted to get your thoughts on.... I was reading an owners manual for a 2012 Toyota 3.5l and it specifies 0/20. Then I looked at a 2010 manual and it specs 5/30 for that engine. Was there any engine redesign or is it more for café? would you recommend sticking with the 20w or going with the 30w ? Thanks for your thoughts.
Swithching Weights
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I'd stick with the 0w-20.
The next post will be someone saying anything but 20w-50 will destroy the engine because it's too thin.
The next post will be someone saying anything but 20w-50 will destroy the engine because it's too thin.
I would say that's likely because of CAFE standards, just like all the other engines that spec'd 30 weight that are now spec'ing 20. Me personally, I would run the recommended weight at least through the warranty period.
It's been raised before, and it's a long standing question. IMO, unless actual engine changes are found(look up the crank, rod and main bearing p/n's, then looking up the crank and rod p/n's, and seeing if that the same parts are being used across this time span), odds are very good that the OEM did some testing, and found "acceptable" wear rates going to a lighter oil. What that means to us is... ?
My opinion is, it doesn't matter. 0W20 might wear the engine faster, but it'll likely make 300k without issue. Just look at all the engines making 200k+ without issues, and all the sub-200k in the junkyards for reasons other than worn bearings. 5W30 might cost a pinch in mpg (may be impossible to actually measure) but it will hardly damage the engine--and you would have to run it past 300k to find out if it was lower wearing. Which many don't.
I used to have two fears about running other than specified 0W20: VVT, and timing chain wear. From what I can tell, chain guides will wear regardless of oil type; and badly designed chains will also wear out, regardless of oil type. But "good" chains won't. Meaning, it's a design problem, not lubrication. It will go the miles, or it won't, but it won't be a fault of the oil. Secondly, the VVT has to work at "cold" engine temperatures, down to -40F / -40C; and in order to do that, it must work with... very thick oils.
If I lived down south, with high ambient temps, I'd be quite tempted to run xW30, especially if the prior years indicated it. I would have no qualms though about running xW20, especially if I got it at a good price. In the end, it probably doesn't matter.
My opinion is, it doesn't matter. 0W20 might wear the engine faster, but it'll likely make 300k without issue. Just look at all the engines making 200k+ without issues, and all the sub-200k in the junkyards for reasons other than worn bearings. 5W30 might cost a pinch in mpg (may be impossible to actually measure) but it will hardly damage the engine--and you would have to run it past 300k to find out if it was lower wearing. Which many don't.
I used to have two fears about running other than specified 0W20: VVT, and timing chain wear. From what I can tell, chain guides will wear regardless of oil type; and badly designed chains will also wear out, regardless of oil type. But "good" chains won't. Meaning, it's a design problem, not lubrication. It will go the miles, or it won't, but it won't be a fault of the oil. Secondly, the VVT has to work at "cold" engine temperatures, down to -40F / -40C; and in order to do that, it must work with... very thick oils.
If I lived down south, with high ambient temps, I'd be quite tempted to run xW30, especially if the prior years indicated it. I would have no qualms though about running xW20, especially if I got it at a good price. In the end, it probably doesn't matter.
Mobil I 0W-30
Originally Posted By: supton
It's been raised before, and it's a long standing question. IMO, unless actual engine changes are found(look up the crank, rod and main bearing p/n's, then looking up the crank and rod p/n's, and seeing if that the same parts are being used across this time span), odds are very good that the OEM did some testing, and found "acceptable" wear rates going to a lighter oil. What that means to us is... ?
My opinion is, it doesn't matter. 0W20 might wear the engine faster, but it'll likely make 300k without issue. Just look at all the engines making 200k+ without issues, and all the sub-200k in the junkyards for reasons other than worn bearings. 5W30 might cost a pinch in mpg (may be impossible to actually measure) but it will hardly damage the engine--and you would have to run it past 300k to find out if it was lower wearing. Which many don't.
I used to have two fears about running other than specified 0W20: VVT, and timing chain wear. From what I can tell, chain guides will wear regardless of oil type; and badly designed chains will also wear out, regardless of oil type. But "good" chains won't. Meaning, it's a design problem, not lubrication. It will go the miles, or it won't, but it won't be a fault of the oil. Secondly, the VVT has to work at "cold" engine temperatures, down to -40F / -40C; and in order to do that, it must work with... very thick oils.
If I lived down south, with high ambient temps, I'd be quite tempted to run xW30, especially if the prior years indicated it. I would have no qualms though about running xW20, especially if I got it at a good price. In the end, it probably doesn't matter.
Your comments on chain wear is a little off. Chain and guide wear is accelerated with oil abuse. I use 0-20 and both engines are very clean. and there is no sign of chain-guide problems. Deposits will restrict oil flow in the area of the guides and cause premature failure. 20-30 probably makes no difference, but oil abuse will. In my opinion, using a quality synthetic oil just makes since.
It's been raised before, and it's a long standing question. IMO, unless actual engine changes are found(look up the crank, rod and main bearing p/n's, then looking up the crank and rod p/n's, and seeing if that the same parts are being used across this time span), odds are very good that the OEM did some testing, and found "acceptable" wear rates going to a lighter oil. What that means to us is... ?
My opinion is, it doesn't matter. 0W20 might wear the engine faster, but it'll likely make 300k without issue. Just look at all the engines making 200k+ without issues, and all the sub-200k in the junkyards for reasons other than worn bearings. 5W30 might cost a pinch in mpg (may be impossible to actually measure) but it will hardly damage the engine--and you would have to run it past 300k to find out if it was lower wearing. Which many don't.
I used to have two fears about running other than specified 0W20: VVT, and timing chain wear. From what I can tell, chain guides will wear regardless of oil type; and badly designed chains will also wear out, regardless of oil type. But "good" chains won't. Meaning, it's a design problem, not lubrication. It will go the miles, or it won't, but it won't be a fault of the oil. Secondly, the VVT has to work at "cold" engine temperatures, down to -40F / -40C; and in order to do that, it must work with... very thick oils.
If I lived down south, with high ambient temps, I'd be quite tempted to run xW30, especially if the prior years indicated it. I would have no qualms though about running xW20, especially if I got it at a good price. In the end, it probably doesn't matter.
Your comments on chain wear is a little off. Chain and guide wear is accelerated with oil abuse. I use 0-20 and both engines are very clean. and there is no sign of chain-guide problems. Deposits will restrict oil flow in the area of the guides and cause premature failure. 20-30 probably makes no difference, but oil abuse will. In my opinion, using a quality synthetic oil just makes since.
Originally Posted By: wjli
just noticed something I wanted to get your thoughts on.... I was reading an owners manual for a 2012 Toyota 3.5l and it specifies 0/20. Then I looked at a 2010 manual and it specs 5/30 for that engine. Was there any engine redesign or is it more for café? would you recommend sticking with the 20w or going with the 30w ? Thanks for your thoughts.
If I were in Georgia (at least from my experience at Ft. Benning) I'd lean toward the 30, but in New England I'd stick with the 20. When Toyota changes an engine it is usually assigned a new type number, so I suspect you are safe with either as the engine hasn't changed. I've been running T6 5W 40 in a couple of Gen 4 Camrys for as long as the oil has been around, but I use what the book says for the 08 V6. As has been mentioned often, the oil specified in other countries, especially warm ones such as OZ, is often the higher viz, much to the distress of those who think thin oil is a religion. Toyota changed the oil spec for the Camry I4 to 5W 20 some years ago but as we know, didn't change the V6 specification until 2010.
just noticed something I wanted to get your thoughts on.... I was reading an owners manual for a 2012 Toyota 3.5l and it specifies 0/20. Then I looked at a 2010 manual and it specs 5/30 for that engine. Was there any engine redesign or is it more for café? would you recommend sticking with the 20w or going with the 30w ? Thanks for your thoughts.
If I were in Georgia (at least from my experience at Ft. Benning) I'd lean toward the 30, but in New England I'd stick with the 20. When Toyota changes an engine it is usually assigned a new type number, so I suspect you are safe with either as the engine hasn't changed. I've been running T6 5W 40 in a couple of Gen 4 Camrys for as long as the oil has been around, but I use what the book says for the 08 V6. As has been mentioned often, the oil specified in other countries, especially warm ones such as OZ, is often the higher viz, much to the distress of those who think thin oil is a religion. Toyota changed the oil spec for the Camry I4 to 5W 20 some years ago but as we know, didn't change the V6 specification until 2010.
Using a "quality synthetic oil" destroyed my TC guides on my bmw 3.2 due to polymer -oil incompatibility. Synthetic is NOT always the "answer".
Originally Posted By: wjli
just noticed something I wanted to get your thoughts on.... I was reading an owners manual for a 2012 Toyota 3.5l and it specifies 0/20. Then I looked at a 2010 manual and it specs 5/30 for that engine. Was there any engine redesign or is it more for café? would you recommend sticking with the 20w or going with the 30w ? Thanks for your thoughts.
I doubt there were any engine design changes since my 2007 3.5l was backspec'd by Toyota to use TGMO 0w20 oil instead of 5w30.
I have tried TGMO 0w20, various 5w30's and the Caterham blend (net 0w30). The only difference my buttometer noticed is a 'little' more of the famous 3.5l cold startup sewing machine/tapping noise from the 0w20. I did a couple of UOA's on the Caterham blend and the results looked fine (posted on bitog).
Bottom line, use with confidence whatever blows your hair back.
PS: Caterham blend in the 3.5l's 6.5 quart sump = 4 quarts TGMO 0w20 ( made by Mobil in the US) & 2.5 quarts Mobil 1 0w40.
just noticed something I wanted to get your thoughts on.... I was reading an owners manual for a 2012 Toyota 3.5l and it specifies 0/20. Then I looked at a 2010 manual and it specs 5/30 for that engine. Was there any engine redesign or is it more for café? would you recommend sticking with the 20w or going with the 30w ? Thanks for your thoughts.
I doubt there were any engine design changes since my 2007 3.5l was backspec'd by Toyota to use TGMO 0w20 oil instead of 5w30.
I have tried TGMO 0w20, various 5w30's and the Caterham blend (net 0w30). The only difference my buttometer noticed is a 'little' more of the famous 3.5l cold startup sewing machine/tapping noise from the 0w20. I did a couple of UOA's on the Caterham blend and the results looked fine (posted on bitog).
Bottom line, use with confidence whatever blows your hair back.
PS: Caterham blend in the 3.5l's 6.5 quart sump = 4 quarts TGMO 0w20 ( made by Mobil in the US) & 2.5 quarts Mobil 1 0w40.
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Using a "quality synthetic oil" destroyed my TC guides on my bmw 3.2 due to polymer -oil incompatibility. Synthetic is NOT always the "answer".
What oil was it? MB, Porsche, and other high end engine builders recommends M1 oils for their engines with success. Maybe yours was a fluke.
Using a "quality synthetic oil" destroyed my TC guides on my bmw 3.2 due to polymer -oil incompatibility. Synthetic is NOT always the "answer".
What oil was it? MB, Porsche, and other high end engine builders recommends M1 oils for their engines with success. Maybe yours was a fluke.
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Using a "quality synthetic oil" destroyed my TC guides on my bmw 3.2 due to polymer -oil incompatibility. Synthetic is NOT always the "answer".
I seriously doubt that any fundamental incompatibility was to blame, what is your evidence? Because pretty much ALL engine oils are composed of the same groups of chemicals. All oils are made from Groups II, III, IV, and V lubricants. The ratio (which one forms the bulk of the oil vs. just being there in additive quantities) is the only thing that differs. So a conventional oil that uses group IV and V chemicals as additives would be just as "incompatible" as Redline that's primarily Group V.
Using a "quality synthetic oil" destroyed my TC guides on my bmw 3.2 due to polymer -oil incompatibility. Synthetic is NOT always the "answer".
I seriously doubt that any fundamental incompatibility was to blame, what is your evidence? Because pretty much ALL engine oils are composed of the same groups of chemicals. All oils are made from Groups II, III, IV, and V lubricants. The ratio (which one forms the bulk of the oil vs. just being there in additive quantities) is the only thing that differs. So a conventional oil that uses group IV and V chemicals as additives would be just as "incompatible" as Redline that's primarily Group V.
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Using a "quality synthetic oil" destroyed my TC guides on my bmw 3.2 due to polymer -oil incompatibility. Synthetic is NOT always the "answer".
What oil was it? MB, Porsche, and other high end engine builders recommends M1 oils for their engines with success. Maybe yours was a fluke.
When in doubt, blame the oil, even if it only happened to one car.
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Using a "quality synthetic oil" destroyed my TC guides on my bmw 3.2 due to polymer -oil incompatibility. Synthetic is NOT always the "answer".
What oil was it? MB, Porsche, and other high end engine builders recommends M1 oils for their engines with success. Maybe yours was a fluke.
When in doubt, blame the oil, even if it only happened to one car.
Don't know bought the car used with 68K. This failure mechanism is well documented and very old news.
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Using a "quality synthetic oil" destroyed my TC guides on my bmw 3.2 due to polymer -oil incompatibility. Synthetic is NOT always the "answer".
What oil was it? MB, Porsche, and other high end engine builders recommends M1 oils for their engines with success. Maybe yours was a fluke.
When in doubt, blame the oil, even if it only happened to one car.
Well I blame BMW engine development AND the oil. There is a lot of plastic in chain timing systems and certain polymers are softened ( then wear excessively) due to incompatibility with certain lubricants.
Give me back my TROUBLE FREE dry timing systems.
ps: HerrStig, I don't like your smarty tone, boy.
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Using a "quality synthetic oil" destroyed my TC guides on my bmw 3.2 due to polymer -oil incompatibility. Synthetic is NOT always the "answer".
What oil was it? MB, Porsche, and other high end engine builders recommends M1 oils for their engines with success. Maybe yours was a fluke.
When in doubt, blame the oil, even if it only happened to one car.
Well I blame BMW engine development AND the oil. There is a lot of plastic in chain timing systems and certain polymers are softened ( then wear excessively) due to incompatibility with certain lubricants.
Give me back my TROUBLE FREE dry timing systems.
ps: HerrStig, I don't like your smarty tone, boy.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Using a "quality synthetic oil" destroyed my TC guides on my bmw 3.2 due to polymer -oil incompatibility. Synthetic is NOT always the "answer".
What oil was it? MB, Porsche, and other high end engine builders recommends M1 oils for their engines with success. Maybe yours was a fluke.
When in doubt, blame the oil, even if it only happened to one car.
Well I blame BMW engine development AND the oil. There is a lot of plastic in chain timing systems and certain polymers are softened ( then wear excessively) due to incompatibility with certain lubricants.
Give me back my TROUBLE FREE dry timing systems.
ps: HerrStig, I don't like your smarty tone, boy.
Since you bought it used, my bet would be some numbskull used a flush in the engine in question at some point before your purchase. Anything but a solvent being incompatible with TC guide plastic is.....Unlikely.
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Using a "quality synthetic oil" destroyed my TC guides on my bmw 3.2 due to polymer -oil incompatibility. Synthetic is NOT always the "answer".
What oil was it? MB, Porsche, and other high end engine builders recommends M1 oils for their engines with success. Maybe yours was a fluke.
When in doubt, blame the oil, even if it only happened to one car.
Well I blame BMW engine development AND the oil. There is a lot of plastic in chain timing systems and certain polymers are softened ( then wear excessively) due to incompatibility with certain lubricants.
Give me back my TROUBLE FREE dry timing systems.
ps: HerrStig, I don't like your smarty tone, boy.
Since you bought it used, my bet would be some numbskull used a flush in the engine in question at some point before your purchase. Anything but a solvent being incompatible with TC guide plastic is.....Unlikely.
The 0w20 synthetic is the spec oil for 10,000 mile drains. I suspect one of the primary reasons Toyota went with that grade is at the time they wrote the spec only synthetics were available and it was already in the inventory for the Hybrids. This avoids the possibility of someone using Mobil Super conventional instead of Mobil 1 for 10,000 mile drains.
If you use a conventional you need to shorten the drains to 5000 miles. Also if the 5w30 is not listed as an alternative in the manual be aware that Toyota is within their rights to refuse coverage if you have an engine failure.
PS we worried about the 5w20 when Ford started using it but engines sometimes survive 150,000 of police use followed by another 600,000 as a taxi. Seriously the difference is only 10-20% in viscosity not the 50% your average consumer believes.
If you use a conventional you need to shorten the drains to 5000 miles. Also if the 5w30 is not listed as an alternative in the manual be aware that Toyota is within their rights to refuse coverage if you have an engine failure.
PS we worried about the 5w20 when Ford started using it but engines sometimes survive 150,000 of police use followed by another 600,000 as a taxi. Seriously the difference is only 10-20% in viscosity not the 50% your average consumer believes.
Originally Posted By: Torrid
Plastic is a bad idea in timing setups in general
Tell that to all the 300,000-mile Ford Modulars out there with those gigantic foot-long polymer-coated chain snubbers and tensioners.
Generally I agree that plastic in timing systems a potential source for trouble (though NOT through any chemical incompatibility with oil unless the designers are drooling idiots). But given how tight the specs for cam timing are these days, you pretty much have to have both tensioners and snubbers. A tensioner can be a roller, but snubbers have to have some kind of non-metallic coating to prevent metal-on-metal sliding wear. There ARE plastics out there that will do the job and outlive the operator's desire to keep the car running.
At least its better than timing belts.
Plastic is a bad idea in timing setups in general
Tell that to all the 300,000-mile Ford Modulars out there with those gigantic foot-long polymer-coated chain snubbers and tensioners.
Generally I agree that plastic in timing systems a potential source for trouble (though NOT through any chemical incompatibility with oil unless the designers are drooling idiots). But given how tight the specs for cam timing are these days, you pretty much have to have both tensioners and snubbers. A tensioner can be a roller, but snubbers have to have some kind of non-metallic coating to prevent metal-on-metal sliding wear. There ARE plastics out there that will do the job and outlive the operator's desire to keep the car running.
At least its better than timing belts.
Either grade would allow the engine to outlast the rest of your Toyota.
Use whichever you'd prefer.
The engine isn't going to know the difference, especially in your fairly warm climate.
You might find a thirty to be smoother and quieter in use.
Use whichever you'd prefer.
The engine isn't going to know the difference, especially in your fairly warm climate.
You might find a thirty to be smoother and quieter in use.
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