Cholesterol Lowering Drugs May Be Harmful

[GaleHawkins]

There is so much changing, misinfo or plain false medical info when it comes to human health it is easy to become discouraged. Being 65 and learning low cholesterol is associated with shorter life spans boggles my mind. If the MD's are clueless what are the rest of us to believe.

Death Risk Increase Due to Lower Cholesterol Levels.

"We observed a significant risk of cancer, noncardiovascular noncancer, and all-cause mortality in men whose TC (Total Cholesterol) levels changed to low (dL) from the middle (180 to 239 mg/dL) level at baseline."

 

[turtlevette]

7 pages and I don't see anyone listing the harmful effects.

I'm not going to eat grass. I eat lots of fried seafood platters. I'd rather be on the statin for insurance.

All these grass eaters don't look healthy. A body needs protein to be fit.

 

[GaleHawkins]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
7 pages and I don't see anyone listing the harmful effects.

I'm not going to eat grass. I eat lots of fried seafood platters. I'd rather be on the statin for insurance.

All these grass eaters don't look healthy. A body needs protein to be fit.


turtlevette what insurance are you referring to? I was reading statins have not upside after age 60. Since I am age 65 I am shooting for a total cholesterol level of 200-250 to lower risks of premature death.

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: VeeDubb


Yeah good points. The dietary and alternative medicine communities are full of hucksters. While one has to certainly be wary of all the money in mainstream medicine, one needs to be equally wary of the legions of alternative health gurus selling uber expensive [censored] or fad diets on their websites.
Why would you be equally worried? Dudes on late night infomercials aren't setting policy, guidelines, training doctors, etc. If you think they're scammers looking for a buck you simply use common sense and ignore them. Big medicine, not so much. They are setting policy, guidelines, training doctors, etc. Big medicine isn't giving billions to lobbyists, media, medical schools, politicians, and institutions to make their products less needed or wanted or recommended. Common sense again. You have to separate the [censored] no matter if it's a dude pushing pills on late night or a multinational doing the same thing.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: hatt

I can't make this any clearer. If the Harvard article is wrong then state that and post the corrected information with a link.

You are correct. There are other sources (Mayo Clinic, and American Heart) that say it differently. They indicate :

Mayo- "People who have a higher 10-year risk of heart attack. This group includes people who have an LDL above 100 mg/dL (1.8 mmol/L) and whose 10-year risk of a heart attack is 7.5 percent or higher."

American Heart "People without cardiovascular disease who are 40 to 75 years old and have a 7.5 percent or higher risk for heart attack or stroke within 10 years."

USPSTF (Draft)- They have a calculated 10-year risk of a cardiovascular event of 10% or greater

Cardiosmart.org- Above a certain likelihood of having a heart attack or stroke in the next 10 years (7.5% or higher) and are between 40 and 75 years of age

Harvard-anyone with a greater than 7.5% chance of having a heart attack or stroke or developing other form of cardiovascular disease in the next 10 years.

John Hopkins The guidelines recommend “considering” preventive therapy in those whose 10-year risk score for suffering a heart attack or stroke is 7.5 percent or higher, but they leave a lot of room for variation, the authors of the report say.

American College of Cardiology - Patients without diabetes, 40 to 75 years of age, with an estimated 10-year ASCVD (atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease)(risk ≥ 7.5%

Its important to note although the wording of #4 is different they all say the same thing. The point is that Risk calculated to a specific criteria are required in folks between the ages of 40 to 75 that do not have diabetes:
These guideliones are calculated here:
http://professional.heart.org/profession...-Guidelines.jsp

My wife gets her cholesterol taken this thurs and sees her Doc next Wed. I will post the exact numbers for her, and exactly that the risk numbers are and how exactly they got them. This should be the latest set of recommendations and a real life recommendation. Hopefully that will clear up some fairy tales (one way or another)

As I said when I was 69 my overall risk was 15% I WAS 229/59 I am now 172/67 all Total/HD
I take 20 mg astorvastatin daily. Cost dropped from $3/month to 0$ month. True miracle for me.

 

[VeeDubb]

Originally Posted By: GaleHawkins
There is so much changing, misinfo or plain false medical info when it comes to human health it is easy to become discouraged. Being 65 and learning low cholesterol is associated with shorter life spans boggles my mind. If the MD's are clueless what are the rest of us to believe.

Death Risk Increase Due to Lower Cholesterol Levels.

"We observed a significant risk of cancer, noncardiovascular noncancer, and all-cause mortality in men whose TC (Total Cholesterol) levels changed to low (dL) from the middle (180 to 239 mg/dL) level at baseline."



Gale, I have come across that before and it is an interesting puzzle. I don't think there is conclusive evidence yet but I suspect that unusually low cholesterol indicates that some other disease process might be going on. For example people with anemia or anemia of chronic disease could have very low cholesterol. It's particularly worrisome for the elderly because it could indicate malnutrition, depression or other factors.

In any case, I think the best thing to do is not to stress over every single study but to live a life of balance and moderation. Moderate exercise and healthy but not extreme diets. One of the biggest predictors of a cluster of metabolic diseases is being overweight which induces systemic inflammation. So I would say being normal weight is 80% of the battle.

 

[GaleHawkins]

Mike I agree with you. In most all health issues there are causes and associations and they are intertwined.

After I learned high LDL numbers did not predict cardio health risks it was a relief.

I am at the point of thinking 'systemic inflammation' is the driver of most all health care risks.

Aug 2014 doctors told me to plan to start Enbrel injections in 90 days. When I started researching Enbrel I freaked out so I got to studying how to prevent/cure cancer. I had a hunch my joint and muscle pain could be managed if I would get off of sugar and all forms of all grain.

I tried to taper off for two months and that was a total failure. 30 days before the time I was to start using Enbrel I left sugar and all grains cold turkey. 1st two weeks of withdrawal was hellish. 15 days in the cravings just started to fade fast. 30 days in my subjective 7-8 pain levels had dropped to 2-3 and 18 months later still are well managed by diet. After 6 months 40 years of serious IBS totally resolved and has not returned. There were many pluses.

LDL went from 146 to 323 but nov 2015 it was back down to 228 which can be typical for some on a Low Carb High Fat diet in the first year.

HDL went from 38 to 72

Triglycerides went from 404 to 52

When triglycerides are less than HDL that is great I read.

I also learned most no one becomes obese before a health failure that causes the hormone Insulin to become elevated and stay elevated.

Still eating 2500+ calories daily I lost down from 250 (life time high) to 200 and automatic maintained at 200 for the last year keeping my total carbs <50 grams a day and protein 70-90 grams daily.That was the first time I have been down to 200 in 22 year and did it without cravings or starving. I eat 5% carbs, 15% protein and 80% fats (saturated like coconut oil, butter, lard, etc)

 

[VeeDubb]

Gale glad low carb worked for you. It didn't work for me but we are all genetically different. My low carb experiment caused my LDL to go from 120 to 270 and it stayed there until I started eating carbs and sugar again. I also had no energy and couldnt do stair climbing or resistance exercises.


But I think we all tolerate carbs differently and if it's working for you, keep going.

One thing about LDL is that while it may not "cause" heart disease, elevated levels should not be ignored either because it may indicate other problems. The most common issue for low carbers are increased cortisol and downgraded thyroid functioning. So if your doctor tries to put you on statins, try to get your thyroid functioning checked out first before doing that.

 

[Cujet]

I've been on Crestor for years. There is no question in my mind that muscle loss and muscle pain is increased on Crestor. Especially on higher doses. I was on 20mg for a while. Now 5mg.

I take plenty of CoQ-10 as an antidote to Crestor.

My Cholesterol hovers around 200 with the drug.

HOWEVER, I am the ONLY ONE in my immediate family to have made it to this age WITHOUT a heart attack. My great grandfather, grandfather, father and brothers all had heart attacks and/or died before 50 years old. Some as early at 34 years old.

I can't predict my outcome tomorrow. But I will say that I do believe Crestor has been a help with regard to my heart health.

There are now a number of studies that indicate mild arterial plaque regression with high dose Crestor. So, it's not likely that it's just the anti inflammatory side effect causing the improvement.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/HeartDiseaseCenter/story?id=4557840

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: VeeDubb
Gale glad low carb worked for you. It didn't work for me but we are all genetically different.
But I think we all tolerate carbs differently and if it's working for you, keep going.

One thing about LDL is that while it may not "cause" heart disease, elevated levels should not be ignored either because it may indicate other problems. The most common issue for low carbers are increased cortisol and downgraded thyroid functioning. So if your doctor tries to put you on statins, try to get your thyroid functioning checked out first before doing that.


Great advice. I always try and point this out. We are fundamentally different by genetics and environment for both pre-existing issues and predisposition to disease. What helps me may kill you...

 

[Al]

Wife had her appointment. Unfortunately the sample somehow did not include her LDL and HDL. The total was 209. The fact that 3 out of 4 the last Total results were over 200 led him to perscribe 20mg/day Statin.

I don't have the information on her total overall risk bc the LDL and HDL were not there. She gets it taken again next week (without the statin). She has a 3 month follow up and he will re evaluate based on the new numbers 3 months from now. He said he would send me the complete technical way they compute risk factor.

Her average Total Cholesterol over the last 10 years is 216. LDL 127 and HD 66. Overall ratio of Total/HDL is 3.3. Interesting that average the previous 10 years 198 with the Ratio 3.4.

I am putting the information here not to start/continue arguments just info for those who truly may be interested.

 

[VeeDubb]

Without statins, those numbers look pretty good. Her total is high, but she also has a high HDL. LDL
And I am not vehemently anti-statins. I figure if the benefts>costs, I'd do em. I'm just not sure the benefit-cost ratio for her favors statins.

Also, I've read somewhere that, although lower LDL may improve her cardiovascular risk, it's not clear that all cause mortality is necessarily minimized by total cholesterol below 200. And at the end of the day, I think all-cause is more important than just death by heart disease.

 

[Al]

Thanks VeeDubb. We will see if she can tolerate the side affects. I do appreciate the comments.

 

[VeeDubb]

Take my comments for what they are worth

I'm not a doctor.

But I am sure you will figure it out along with your doctor. Good luck.

 

[VeeDubb]

Hey Al.
I thought you might be interesting in knowing that my Mom (67 years old) just recently visited the doctor. She has diabetes and has total cholesterol of 245 with HDL of 70. On statins.

She's been losing weight over the last year or so and her doctor pulled her off of statins. He said at her age she doesn't need them given the risk of side effects. Told her just to continue to lose weight and eat less coconut oil (she's been taking it because she heard it helps with brain health). The doctor is also credible; a fairly high level guy at Washington University Medical Center in St. Louis.

Don't know what any of this means to you, but I thought you might be interested.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: VeeDubb
Hey Al.
I thought you might be interesting in knowing that my Mom (67 years old) just recently visited the doctor. She has diabetes and has total cholesterol of 245 with HDL of 70. On statins.

She's been losing weight over the last year or so and her doctor pulled her off of statins. He said at her age she doesn't need them given the risk of side effects. Told her just to continue to lose weight and eat less coconut oil (she's been taking it because she heard it helps with brain health). The doctor is also credible; a fairly high level guy at Washington University Medical Center in St. Louis.

Don't know what any of this means to you, but I thought you might be interested.


Thanks. Yea always risks vs benefits. I am surprised though at him stopping them. I probably would ask him to provide the standard risk profile which is good for the ages of40 to 75 I believe.

Any..here is what he should have used. Plug in her numbers and judge for your self..HDL, Total Cholesterol, Smoker, age, systolic BP, and whether you are on BP medication.

http://cvdrisk.nhlbi.nih.gov/

 

[Mamala Bay]

Originally Posted By: VeeDubb
Hey Al.
I thought you might be interesting in knowing that my Mom (67 years old) just recently visited the doctor. She has diabetes and has total cholesterol of 245 with HDL of 70. On statins.

She's been losing weight over the last year or so and her doctor pulled her off of statins. He said at her age she doesn't need them given the risk of side effects. Told her just to continue to lose weight and eat less coconut oil (she's been taking it because she heard it helps with brain health). The doctor is also credible; a fairly high level guy at Washington University Medical Center in St. Louis.

Don't know what any of this means to you, but I thought you might be interested.


My highest LDL was 140 probably due to a lot of coconut oil but my HDL was 89. I had lots of extra energy in my tank. I needed worry Doc said I wasn't a risk due to my high HDL. That was 6 years ago and beyond.

The last 3 years coconut oil has decreased and the last year very little coconut oil. My LDL dropped to 109, 109 and the last Dec to 95. But I feel weaker less energy in the tank.

My Dec 2015 Total Ch-197 HDL-86 LDL-95 Trig 82. My BP 117/74 Doc said his had only one other patient in the 60's age bracket BP that was in their teens a vegetarian health freak marathon runner.

I'm going back to more coconut oil each their own it maybe due to geographic location with no cold winters the tropic weather maybe more suited for coconut oil.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: Mamala Bay

My highest LDL was 140 probably due to a lot of coconut oil but my HDL was 89. I had lots of extra energy in my tank. I needed worry Doc said I wasn't a risk due to my high HDL. That was 6 years ago and beyond.

My Dec 2015 Total Ch-197 HDL-86 LDL-95 Trig 82. My BP 117/74 Doc said his had only one other patient in the 60's age bracket BP that was in their teens a vegetarian health freak marathon runner.

I'm going back to more coconut oil each their own it maybe due to geographic location with no cold winters the tropic weather maybe more suited for coconut oil.

Well the jury out on coconut but with your numbers it doesn't matter..lol. LDL is calculated so I am guessing your LDL of 140 qwas not that high. But again I doubt it matters.

Why don't you take B-50 complex vitamins for a couple weeks and maybe some D3. I have had a couple episodes of "tiredness" in the last couple of years. B has always fixed it.

Congrats..you will live forever..lol

 

[Mamala Bay]

D3 there is plenty here always out in the sun. Weakness is due to physical work I do in the sun, getting older not the same 10 years ago need some reserve energy.

Can't live forever lol I don't think of it. I do believe I had a good childhood diet I ate a lot of high quality fruits and did a lot of running strong heart. My BP is probably to due to a high consumption of garlic and I do consume natto to keep the blood pressure down. I did have high BP returning to America couldn't believe it as I had a very low heart beat rate in excellent physical condition. In all honesty my return to America the fast food and supermarket may had contributed to it even though physically I was in excellent shape. Maybe too much instant ramen and saimen. Don't eat that stuff no more.

I do consume sea salt on a daily basis no effect on BP. STAY AWAY from the inner supermarket and fast food. GMO forget it keep my digestive in order eat a lot of fermented food and raw seafood and veggie.

For breakfast 2 Costco organic egg / organic chicken sausage and a papaya. 1 quart either white/green/olive leaf tea maybe 2 some days. For lunch stir fry with a lot of veggie and an apple. For dinner 1/2 lb raw tuna/raw onion.

Quality fruits are hard to find now days I do consume camu camu powder daily for V-C and antioxidants potent stuff. I do know fresh made olive oil and fermented olives as I did live in the ME. Had first hand experience with the farmers as they process it. These were thousand year old olive trees in the dry area. Higher quality fruits and veggie also grown in this area I do believe better than fruits grown here in Hawaii. Something about the weather the huge temp fluctuation that triggers the fruit trees to produce natural defensive measure that goes into the fruit and veggie. You consume it.

How we learn when we were younger and look back.

 

[VeeDubb]

Originally Posted By: Mamala Bay
.

My Dec 2015 Total Ch-197 HDL-86 LDL-95 Trig 82. My BP 117/74 Doc said his had only one other patient in the 60's age bracket BP that was in their teens a vegetarian health freak marathon runner.

.

Amazing numbers. Whatever you are doing, keep doing it.