Wix & Transmission Filters (Failed Filter, Fire)

[tweak]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIDEecc_k00

Action starts at 12 seconds. The filter worked fine for thirteen days until this.

Today the Dallas rep came and took the filter I originally purchased. I asked him what they were made of and he gave me an 800 number for product information. Susan Thompson answered and refused very rudely to disclose anything and directed me to look at their product info website. She wouldn't tell me what specific plastic, whether it was thermoset or a thermoplastic, melting temperature, anything.

The man I spoke to initially suggested a bursting failure was impossible if it was correctly installed, with a separate bypass valve (despite the lack of instructions to install one in the box). So, a few questions for the gurus here:

What cooler line pressures would a 4t65e transmission generate?
Does the 4t65e have an internal bypass in case of cooler blockage?
Any idea as to flow rate of 4t65e transmission cooler?

http://www.wixfilters.com/Lookup/PartDetails.aspx?PartNum=58964

They have a company policy for yielding poor customer service. I was told that I would have to pay to repair everything out of my own pocket, submit receipts for approval, and then I might see some money if they decide their own filter was bad, which doesn't seem likely since the tech claims it's "impossible." Odds are I'll have to take them to small claims court to see any compensation...

For what it's worth, my truck has a Derale remote filter mount installed for transmission filtration with a Fram XG8A filter. Works phenomenally, and after installing it cleaned the fluid right up. It's all aluminum and metal oil filter though.

If nobody can provide the answers, I'll try to come up with some mounts to add to the lines for sensors to measure temps, pressures, etc. I'll keep you posted. Also, I have ruled out the possibility of electrical fires from either the wiring harness or the radiator fan.

Apologies for the quick post and any spelling errors. I'm on lunch. I'll try to post pictures of the instructions and anything relevant tomorrow.

 

[Leo99]

So what do you have to get repaired? What exactly happened?

 

[Donald]

Why did you installa WIX instead of a Magnefine?

 

[Colt45ws]

Originally Posted By: Donald
Why did you installa WIX instead of a Magnefine?

People are having problems with the Magnefines leaking as well at the oring. Though, generally just a seep.

 

[Neely97]

So, is that a video on from your vehicle ?
Was there a fire?
Did I miss something?

 

[splinter]

Intriguing.

 

[eljefino]

I wonder if that filter isn't bracketed properly and vibration did it in.

I'd expect some sort of u-clamp bolting it to the frame and not just hanging from the rubber hoses.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Colt45ws

People are having problems with the Magnefines leaking as well at the oring. Though, generally just a seep.


I've been on the fence about Magnefine filters for a while, for fear of what I've read, and recently heard about them. Thanks for posting, I'll pass.

 

[dishdude]

Where's the fire?

 

[Nate1979]

Installed backwards?

 

[zvm77us]

Originally Posted By: tweak

What cooler line pressures would a 4t65e transmission generate?
Does the 4t65e have an internal bypass in case of cooler blockage?
Any idea as to flow rate of 4t65e transmission cooler?



go to http://www.tripleedgeperformance.com/Contact-Info.html
He knows the 4t65e inside out.

 

[clinebarger]

Originally Posted By: tweak

What cooler line pressures would a 4t65e transmission generate?
Does the 4t65e have an internal bypass in case of cooler blockage?
Any idea as to flow rate of 4t65e transmission cooler?


It is a low pressure circuit, I have never "Dead Headed" the circuit to find out what max pressure is, It has a "Converter Charge" blow-off valve that would open if the Cooler/Line became blocked. This is to protect the Converter from damage....Probably set to around 100 psi. I know for a fact IT IS BELOW the 200 psi burst pressure they have listed.
Cooler flow changes with fluid temp, Around .5 GPM at 60 degrees, Too 2 GPM at 150 degrees...These are Minimum! Don't know what to say about their listed flow rates, Temps are not listed.

Did you install the filter correctly? The TOP cooler fitting on the Transmission is the FEED/OUT to cooler, The BOTTOM cooler fitting on the transmission is RETURN/Lube.
The filter has an arrow on it, It is your responsibility to know how/direction your cooler flows.

Wix buys most if not all their transmission filters from outside sources, Mostly from SPX/Filtran.



What is the deal with cooler line filters? Why hack up your cooler lines for a perceived benefit that doesn't exist?

 

[Mackelroy]

Originally Posted By: clinebarger

have listed.
.

What is the deal with cooler line filters? Why hack up your cooler lines for a perceived benefit that doesn't exist?



Yep would have saved a lot of head ache

 

[tweak]

Lots to go over...

Originally Posted By: Leo99
So what do you have to get repaired? What exactly happened?


What happened, and then repairs:

I was running errands around town. Before I pulled out of the hardware store, I heard something squeak that sounded similar to the video. Checked out the belt and it was good so I shrugged. It's an old car, I'll allow it some noises here and there. Got to the supermarket, left, made it about a quarter mile before I noticed smoke behind me. I was slowing down waiting for an opportunity to pull over when I saw flames flick out from under the hood.

I checked the mirrors, hit the flashers, slammed on the brakes, killed the car, and called 911. It's a small town and the police arrived shortly. I popped the hood once we were armed to put out the fire and extinguished it. By the time we popped the hood it was mostly smoldering, likely due to the upper radiator hose melting and dousing the big fire.

The sun was going down and all I could tell was oily fluid was leaking, which I attributed to coolant. The firemen had bright flashlights but it was very smoky under the hood for a while, and at first glance it appeared to be the radiator fan which had caught fire and burned the radiator shroud.


Mechanical damage includes:
Fan shroud, left fan blade, wiring loom (safrificed itself to save harness - I dissected it and no wires had any damage besides being sticky from their electrical tape wrap getting hot), and a toasted engine mount (where I set the camera to video the leaky filter).

There's a long list of things that were either partially melted or had melted plastic drip on them.

Originally Posted By: Donald
Why did you installa WIX instead of a Magnefine?


I doubted plastic filters. A quick google search yielded a few instances of failed magnefines vs. no wix filters. Also, prior to this, I actually liked Wix, second to Purolator. Now they're way behind cheap PH-series Fram. Not entirely based on objective facts, but the PureOne series has the useful grip texture, a competitive price, and supposedly a lot of high quality filter media.

Originally Posted By: Neely97
So, is that a video on from your vehicle ?
Was there a fire?
Did I miss something?


That is after I replaced the radiator hose, fan shroud, left fan blade, and inspected the radiator fan motor and wiring harness for any evidence that they caused the fire. I test fired the car and heard the squeak, so I killed it and noticed transmission fluid. This was a convenient way to verify where the transmission fluid came from.

It's difficult to see, but it shoots directly onto the exhaust manifold (left side, in video) and ricochets to the right side of the video frame (radiator shroud). The radiator shroud was wet at the location of the burn, so I think the manifold ignited the fluid which burned the shroud. Those shrouds don't burn easily without an accelerant. From there it ignited the hood insulation pad and that melted all over everything in the engine compartment.

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Installed backwards?


Nope. Installed on line coming from transmission block (output), with the arrow pointing toward the radiator. The return line goes straight to the pan.

Originally Posted By: zvm77us

go to http://www.tripleedgeperformance.com/Contact-Info.html
He knows the 4t65e inside out.


I'll send him an email in the morning. Thanks!

Originally Posted By: clinebarger

It is a low pressure circuit, I have never "Dead Headed" the circuit to find out what max pressure is, It has a "Converter Charge" blow-off valve that would open if the Cooler/Line became blocked. This is to protect the Converter from damage....Probably set to around 100 psi. I know for a fact IT IS BELOW the 200 psi burst pressure they have listed.
Cooler flow changes with fluid temp, Around .5 GPM at 60 degrees, Too 2 GPM at 150 degrees...These are Minimum! Don't know what to say about their listed flow rates, Temps are not listed.


I read an article about some older Chryslers requiring addition of an external bypass to prevent damage when they started adding transmission coolers, so I figured it would be indsutry standard by now to have an internal bypass.

Quote:

Did you install the filter correctly? The TOP cooler fitting on the Transmission is the FEED/OUT to cooler, The BOTTOM cooler fitting on the transmission is RETURN/Lube.
The filter has an arrow on it, It is your responsibility to know how/direction your cooler flows.

Wix buys most if not all their transmission filters from outside sources, Mostly from SPX/Filtran.


Got it. That was one of the first things I verified, and I double checked before cutting anything to make sure it was on the hot side so the fluid would, theoretically, be less viscous and less likely to exceed the pressure differential required to open the bypass valve.


Quote:
What is the deal with cooler line filters? Why hack up your cooler lines for a perceived benefit that doesn't exist?


It wasn't an uneducated decision. Please read this case study, this trailerlife article, etc. There are also benefits to cooling transmission fluid as in extreme cases it tends to oxidize and degrade, no longer offering the appropriate protection and properties the components using it require; however, many people insist cool transmission fluid is a fruitless effort as well. Proper maintenance and regular changes are definitely useful, but preventing the contamination and failure of the fluid in the first place is cheap peace of mind and can save money by extending the usable life of the oil you have.

For practical purposes I'm well aware that cars commonly go 100k+ miles with the factory fluid. That doesn't mean the system is perfect - filtration could still be better. I'm also aware that 4t65e units tend to be dirty and unreliable after a certain time. I understand some failures are attributable to the design not being able to handle certain habits, but clean fluid is certainly better than dirty fluid, no matter the habits.

Anyway, the transmission fluid I pulled out was very dark. I sucked out the fluid through the dipstick and decided to install the filter to catch whatever remnants of the old, dirty oil may be present.

 

[Neely97]

OK, I thought that you had a filter cam under the hood which seemed odd.
Good luck and Merry Christmas.

 

[tweak]

Haha no that would be overkill. But I did find out more info a bout the filter today. I bought another from O'Reillys to check out. It says, on the housing, "THIS FILTER IS SUITABLE FOR INSTALLATION IN TRANSMISSION RETURN COOLING LINES" and has patent number 6, 139, 737 printed on it.

The patent explains that its filter housing should be made of glass filled nylon - I would expect injection molded. The two halved are ultrasonically welded. They don't comment on the specific ratio of glass to nylon or which nylon polymer is used in the patent. I suppose it may not even be nylon, but Nylon 6,6 (as linked) has the higher melting point and likely better high temperature performance characteristics, and Sterlingplastic states, "Nylons are also known to be resilient and non marring, have high impact resistance has a continuous operating temperature of about 180º F."

Fiberglass reinforced plastics (FRP) are very strong and useful, but the fact that they are ultrasonically welded could be cause for concern. When welding FRP there's no guarantee that the glass will flow with the plastic, and the distribution of reinforcement and structural integrity could be affected, as the case seems to be for me. Also, if the filter was produced at a wet time, humudity can affect the joint. The rep is working on getting the date code, which isn't printed on these types of filters.

I will try contacting SPX Filtran for more specific information about the construction of the housing. The woman at Wix was very rude last time we spoke, claimed that information was proprietary, and refused to let me speak to her boss.

Thank you Neely, and merry Christmas to you too.

 

[Leo99]

Glad you were not injured in the fire and that you were able to repair the damages and get your car running again.

I'm pushing 300k on mostly the factory fill on my Rav4 so I'm not one to push modifications to the tranny cooling system but people like you that tinker and share their exploits and data, both positive and negative, add to the body of knowledge.

 

[tweak]

Just posting to update - after several months Wix did their investigation, concluded the ultrasonically welded seam failed due to moisture contamination, and had their insurance pay on an estimate for the repairs.

This contradicts their warranty policy, and what I was told the entire way, but it was really just a matter of it escalating high enough for someone that can make a decision to see it.

 

[Plawan]

Originally Posted By: tweak
Just posting to update - after several months Wix did their investigation, concluded the ultrasonically welded seam failed due to moisture contamination, and had their insurance pay on an estimate for the repairs.

This contradicts their warranty policy, and what I was told the entire way, but it was really just a matter of it escalating high enough for someone that can make a decision to see it.

Very good news.
Ive had no problems at all with the 2 of these ive used and habe never till you heard of a single issur but hey, e every manufacturer will jabe a failure here and there.
Ibe heard of several catastrophied with the magnifine and minor flaws too but i have been running one of those too without issue.
Its info like this that keeps me constantly inspecting everything regularly.

 

[Rhymingmechanic]

Thanks for posting your follow-up.

It would seem like Magnefine's threaded endcap design avoids the possibility of failed seams. I have used several of them without any noticeable leaks.