Arguing with people over oil is fun!
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Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
In my experience, most people on other forums think that BITOG is full of weirdos and laugh when you refer them to it.
I've heard MUCH WORSE than that about us on other (un-censored) auto forums.
Not on the forum where I`m an admin. We actually encourage folks to come here. This place is a great source of oil info.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
In my experience, most people on other forums think that BITOG is full of weirdos and laugh when you refer them to it.
I've heard MUCH WORSE than that about us on other (un-censored) auto forums.
Not on the forum where I`m an admin. We actually encourage folks to come here. This place is a great source of oil info.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
In my experience, most people on other forums think that BITOG is full of weirdos and laugh when you refer them to it.
To be fair, there are plenty of weirdos here.
Just because one is a weirdo, doesn't mean one is wrong.
Most mechanics learned from Bubba before them, so there is a lot of wrong information out there.
In my experience, most people on other forums think that BITOG is full of weirdos and laugh when you refer them to it.
To be fair, there are plenty of weirdos here.
Just because one is a weirdo, doesn't mean one is wrong.
Most mechanics learned from Bubba before them, so there is a lot of wrong information out there.
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Originally Posted By: PSS
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
In my experience, most people on other forums think that BITOG is full of weirdos and laugh when you refer them to it.
To be fair, there are plenty of weirdos here.
Just because one is a weirdo, doesn't mean one is wrong.
Most mechanics learned from Bubba before them, so there is a lot of wrong information out there.
Most mechanics know next to zero about oil. But that's okay, I don't go to them for that.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
In my experience, most people on other forums think that BITOG is full of weirdos and laugh when you refer them to it.
To be fair, there are plenty of weirdos here.
Just because one is a weirdo, doesn't mean one is wrong.
Most mechanics learned from Bubba before them, so there is a lot of wrong information out there.
Most mechanics know next to zero about oil. But that's okay, I don't go to them for that.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
In my experience, most people on other forums think that BITOG is full of weirdos and laugh when you refer them to it.
That's been my experience as well.
I was given advice, just today, that says the following: "W means the oil will hold the listed viscosity in cold temperatures. The numbers are important because those are the viscosities. The lower the numbers the less the viscosity and less viscosity means more wear."
My car popped an oil leak a few days ago.
In my experience, most people on other forums think that BITOG is full of weirdos and laugh when you refer them to it.
That's been my experience as well.
I was given advice, just today, that says the following: "W means the oil will hold the listed viscosity in cold temperatures. The numbers are important because those are the viscosities. The lower the numbers the less the viscosity and less viscosity means more wear."
My car popped an oil leak a few days ago.
Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
Originally Posted By: 69GTX
Originally Posted By: 02s4audi
.... I also stated that the most engine wears occurs n start up and he said it didn't. I told him to come to this forum and get his facts straight.
I think a large percentage of this forum might disagree. Wording is critical. Many could successfully argue that "warmup" (the period where oil temp is below normal operating temp) is where the most wear occurs. Does more wear occur during the 3-10 seconds of cold startup or in the following 5-20 min of oil warmup?
A question of semantics......One is not possible, without the other.
If using a particular oil results in less wear for one, it will result in less wear for both.
This ignores whether an engine should be "Warmed up" without doing any work......Which is usually more wasteful than the choice of oil, anyway.
As to warmed up without any work.. It takes a certain amount of time for oil to get all over the head, which is what I think some people want.
I have an oil leak now, shortly after I used synthetic oil. Some here say that is not supposed to happen.
Tomatos, tomatoes. I always say tomatos.
Originally Posted By: 69GTX
Originally Posted By: 02s4audi
.... I also stated that the most engine wears occurs n start up and he said it didn't. I told him to come to this forum and get his facts straight.
I think a large percentage of this forum might disagree. Wording is critical. Many could successfully argue that "warmup" (the period where oil temp is below normal operating temp) is where the most wear occurs. Does more wear occur during the 3-10 seconds of cold startup or in the following 5-20 min of oil warmup?
A question of semantics......One is not possible, without the other.
If using a particular oil results in less wear for one, it will result in less wear for both.
This ignores whether an engine should be "Warmed up" without doing any work......Which is usually more wasteful than the choice of oil, anyway.
As to warmed up without any work.. It takes a certain amount of time for oil to get all over the head, which is what I think some people want.
I have an oil leak now, shortly after I used synthetic oil. Some here say that is not supposed to happen.
Tomatos, tomatoes. I always say tomatos.
Originally Posted By: HazardousGorilla
Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
Originally Posted By: 69GTX
Originally Posted By: 02s4audi
.... I also stated that the most engine wears occurs n start up and he said it didn't. I told him to come to this forum and get his facts straight.
I think a large percentage of this forum might disagree. Wording is critical. Many could successfully argue that "warmup" (the period where oil temp is below normal operating temp) is where the most wear occurs. Does more wear occur during the 3-10 seconds of cold startup or in the following 5-20 min of oil warmup?
A question of semantics......One is not possible, without the other.
If using a particular oil results in less wear for one, it will result in less wear for both.
This ignores whether an engine should be "Warmed up" without doing any work......Which is usually more wasteful than the choice of oil, anyway.
As to warmed up without any work.. It takes a certain amount of time for oil to get all over the head, which is what I think some people want.
I have an oil leak now, shortly after I used synthetic oil. Some here say that is not supposed to happen.
Tomatos, tomatoes. I always say tomatos.
And some are told it DOES cause leaks but they NEVER have one. Neither observation has much science in it.
Originally Posted By: 4wheeldog
Originally Posted By: 69GTX
Originally Posted By: 02s4audi
.... I also stated that the most engine wears occurs n start up and he said it didn't. I told him to come to this forum and get his facts straight.
I think a large percentage of this forum might disagree. Wording is critical. Many could successfully argue that "warmup" (the period where oil temp is below normal operating temp) is where the most wear occurs. Does more wear occur during the 3-10 seconds of cold startup or in the following 5-20 min of oil warmup?
A question of semantics......One is not possible, without the other.
If using a particular oil results in less wear for one, it will result in less wear for both.
This ignores whether an engine should be "Warmed up" without doing any work......Which is usually more wasteful than the choice of oil, anyway.
As to warmed up without any work.. It takes a certain amount of time for oil to get all over the head, which is what I think some people want.
I have an oil leak now, shortly after I used synthetic oil. Some here say that is not supposed to happen.
Tomatos, tomatoes. I always say tomatos.
And some are told it DOES cause leaks but they NEVER have one. Neither observation has much science in it.
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
HazardousGorilla said:And some are told it DOES cause leaks but they NEVER have one. Neither observation has much science in it.
Then, some say that synthetic oil does not CAUSE leaks, but COULD clean away some kind of "sealer sludge" that would then expose something that makes a leak, which somehow is not causing a leak.
If you pee on your foot in the shower, it cures athletes foot. But that's not supposed to be true, either.
My brand-specific car board still tells me 10W is the proper oil. I used to have a car, some time ago, where if I did not use 20W-50 in it, the owners community would berate me to no end. Never did explain what to do with it in a midwest winter.
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
In my experience, most people on other forums think that BITOG is full of weirdos and laugh when you refer them to it.
The way I look at it, the whole entire world is insane. I come here to get some normalcy.
In my experience, most people on other forums think that BITOG is full of weirdos and laugh when you refer them to it.
The way I look at it, the whole entire world is insane. I come here to get some normalcy.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
I don't concur that excess oil left sitting is good enough for much besides corrosion protection. Sure, it's there, but it's not active, moving, or necessarily pumping at the start when really cold.
The oil left in the capillary spaces in bearings, and between piston skirts and walls 9and rings), that is left over from last time it's run is there.
Why WOULD it need to be "active", "moving", or "necessarily pumping" at the start when really cold ?
If it's there, then the relative movement of parts provides the movement, and the (very high) viscosity provides the hydrodynamic lubrication...for a brief time before the oil is "flowing" through the pump and galleries.
It has to work, otherwise you'd expect to see massive differences in cam wear along an engine, as they are
a) typically, not always randomly splash lubricated; and
b) that doesn't happen for a few seconds after the engine fires (few can be tens in cold weather.
So if the issue that you present is fact, you could map cam wear in cars operated in texas to see where the wear occurs...
As to being merely a corrosion protection film, have a look at the mid 5 minute mark here.
The cams clearly have a lubricant film, and clearly have relative motion...and clearly it's more than enough to lubricate...for a while.
Yes, when the "time constant is measured in minutes", there's plenty of scope for excess wear...a time constant of minutes means that you have the wrong oil, the wrong "W" rating.
I was countering the BITOG meme that "0W-anything is better than 5W/10W-anything at any temperature", one of the "advantages" attributed to the 0W20 grade, ad implicit in the OP and others.
Pick a "W" rating appropriate to the conditions, and you get other advantages like lower volatility, lower temporary and permanent shear, and less chance of sludge from sheared VIIs.
I agree that the really low temperature stuff is interesting, one of my favourite papers is the US military seeing how far cold they can push the 6.2 diesel on mil-spec 15W40...it's a contradiction in everything sensible, but makes a useful experiment for what they might be called on to do.
As to sequence IV, one area that I have a significant interest in is the statement, and I used to believe it, that the perfect oil would have zero viscosity change from cold to hot...the perfect viscosity index.
Sounds great, except for what makes sequence IV hard...the FMs and AW's take heat to activate, and are required to be active at the temperatures that the viscosity is the lowest...if you start with that viscosity, and inactive FMs, then the heat has to come entirely from surface interaction...stribeck LHS without active FMS is bad.
Better safe than sorry though...
The lowest recorded temps here in modern times are -21°C. I've personally never seen that but I've witnessed -18°C a few years ago. In theory a 15w would suffice at all times, and a 20w in my reality.
but...
Oils are allowed to slip 1 winter grade during use, and 10w + 15w oils, according to Selby are more likely to show the abnormal gelling. My oil is allowed to stay in the sump for up to 2 years according to the manufacturer. If the premature gelling is caused/helped by contamination 2 year old oil will be more likely to experience this.
So the Winter rating must be chosen with care, and it might very well be appropriate to use 5w or less in my climate.
Other than that, I agree with what you're saying though.
On a side note, why does the maximum cold cranking viscosity on SAE J300 drop with the lower grades, while the low temp pumping viscosity is the same for all grades? ie, why would a 13,000 cP work at -10°C, but not at -25°C?
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
I don't concur that excess oil left sitting is good enough for much besides corrosion protection. Sure, it's there, but it's not active, moving, or necessarily pumping at the start when really cold.
The oil left in the capillary spaces in bearings, and between piston skirts and walls 9and rings), that is left over from last time it's run is there.
Why WOULD it need to be "active", "moving", or "necessarily pumping" at the start when really cold ?
If it's there, then the relative movement of parts provides the movement, and the (very high) viscosity provides the hydrodynamic lubrication...for a brief time before the oil is "flowing" through the pump and galleries.
It has to work, otherwise you'd expect to see massive differences in cam wear along an engine, as they are
a) typically, not always randomly splash lubricated; and
b) that doesn't happen for a few seconds after the engine fires (few can be tens in cold weather.
So if the issue that you present is fact, you could map cam wear in cars operated in texas to see where the wear occurs...
As to being merely a corrosion protection film, have a look at the mid 5 minute mark here.
The cams clearly have a lubricant film, and clearly have relative motion...and clearly it's more than enough to lubricate...for a while.
Yes, when the "time constant is measured in minutes", there's plenty of scope for excess wear...a time constant of minutes means that you have the wrong oil, the wrong "W" rating.
I was countering the BITOG meme that "0W-anything is better than 5W/10W-anything at any temperature", one of the "advantages" attributed to the 0W20 grade, ad implicit in the OP and others.
Pick a "W" rating appropriate to the conditions, and you get other advantages like lower volatility, lower temporary and permanent shear, and less chance of sludge from sheared VIIs.
I agree that the really low temperature stuff is interesting, one of my favourite papers is the US military seeing how far cold they can push the 6.2 diesel on mil-spec 15W40...it's a contradiction in everything sensible, but makes a useful experiment for what they might be called on to do.
As to sequence IV, one area that I have a significant interest in is the statement, and I used to believe it, that the perfect oil would have zero viscosity change from cold to hot...the perfect viscosity index.
Sounds great, except for what makes sequence IV hard...the FMs and AW's take heat to activate, and are required to be active at the temperatures that the viscosity is the lowest...if you start with that viscosity, and inactive FMs, then the heat has to come entirely from surface interaction...stribeck LHS without active FMS is bad.
Better safe than sorry though...
The lowest recorded temps here in modern times are -21°C. I've personally never seen that but I've witnessed -18°C a few years ago. In theory a 15w would suffice at all times, and a 20w in my reality.
but...
Oils are allowed to slip 1 winter grade during use, and 10w + 15w oils, according to Selby are more likely to show the abnormal gelling. My oil is allowed to stay in the sump for up to 2 years according to the manufacturer. If the premature gelling is caused/helped by contamination 2 year old oil will be more likely to experience this.
So the Winter rating must be chosen with care, and it might very well be appropriate to use 5w or less in my climate.
Other than that, I agree with what you're saying though.
On a side note, why does the maximum cold cranking viscosity on SAE J300 drop with the lower grades, while the low temp pumping viscosity is the same for all grades? ie, why would a 13,000 cP work at -10°C, but not at -25°C?
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Better safe than sorry though...
The lowest recorded temps here in modern times are -21°C. I've personally never seen that but I've witnessed -18°C a few years ago. In theory a 15w would suffice at all times, and a 20w in my reality.
but...
Oils are allowed to slip 1 winter grade during use, and 10w + 15w oils, according to Selby are more likely to show the abnormal gelling. My oil is allowed to stay in the sump for up to 2 years according to the manufacturer. If the premature gelling is caused/helped by contamination 2 year old oil will be more likely to experience this.
So the Winter rating must be chosen with care, and it might very well be appropriate to use 5w or less in my climate.
Other than that, I agree with what you're saying though.
On a side note, why does the maximum cold cranking viscosity on SAE J300 drop with the lower grades, while the low temp pumping viscosity is the same for all grades? ie, why would a 13,000 cP work at -10°C, but not at -25°C?
I agree with you, and the fact that they CAN slip "legally" makes the call to one W lower a good one (think I've recommended that one in the past too).
http://www.savantgroup.com/media/SBT-SAE-922287.pdf
Table 2 has what Selby proposed, clearly it's not what eventuated.
MRV is how well the oil gets to the pickup, I can see how that SHOULD be the same.
CCS also needs the battery to be able to do it's job, (and this is only my speculation) that the colder it gets, the less able the battery is to crank the goop.
Better safe than sorry though...
The lowest recorded temps here in modern times are -21°C. I've personally never seen that but I've witnessed -18°C a few years ago. In theory a 15w would suffice at all times, and a 20w in my reality.
but...
Oils are allowed to slip 1 winter grade during use, and 10w + 15w oils, according to Selby are more likely to show the abnormal gelling. My oil is allowed to stay in the sump for up to 2 years according to the manufacturer. If the premature gelling is caused/helped by contamination 2 year old oil will be more likely to experience this.
So the Winter rating must be chosen with care, and it might very well be appropriate to use 5w or less in my climate.
Other than that, I agree with what you're saying though.
On a side note, why does the maximum cold cranking viscosity on SAE J300 drop with the lower grades, while the low temp pumping viscosity is the same for all grades? ie, why would a 13,000 cP work at -10°C, but not at -25°C?
I agree with you, and the fact that they CAN slip "legally" makes the call to one W lower a good one (think I've recommended that one in the past too).
http://www.savantgroup.com/media/SBT-SAE-922287.pdf
Table 2 has what Selby proposed, clearly it's not what eventuated.
MRV is how well the oil gets to the pickup, I can see how that SHOULD be the same.
CCS also needs the battery to be able to do it's job, (and this is only my speculation) that the colder it gets, the less able the battery is to crank the goop.
yes, but that's a battery issue, not an oil issue... it's all I could think of aswell...
or do the clearances in the crank become smaller at those very low temperatures?
or do the clearances in the crank become smaller at those very low temperatures?
Fair call also...appears to be a problem with aero stuff...
http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/182846-1.html
edit...iron and iron, they all shrink at the same rate...alloy and iron are different.
http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/182846-1.html
edit...iron and iron, they all shrink at the same rate...alloy and iron are different.
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but the shells aren't iron at all, nor are the bearing caps in the head (cams)
Patman
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Chris142
I don't argue or offer advice any more unless I'm asked
I'm the same way now. When this site first started (and even before then) I would jump on just about every oil related topic on other car sites and try to inject some actual facts. But now I realize it's a lost cause, it just ends up getting into big arguments. So I don't even like to say anything at all anymore, it's just not worth the stress.
I used to enjoy when people private messaged me from other car sites asking oil questions but now I'd rather not even get involved with that anymore.
I don't argue or offer advice any more unless I'm asked
I'm the same way now. When this site first started (and even before then) I would jump on just about every oil related topic on other car sites and try to inject some actual facts. But now I realize it's a lost cause, it just ends up getting into big arguments. So I don't even like to say anything at all anymore, it's just not worth the stress.
I used to enjoy when people private messaged me from other car sites asking oil questions but now I'd rather not even get involved with that anymore.
You just dropped in to discuss GC then? Lol
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