Effectiveness of Car Headlights

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

If MB could do good E-code headlight 15 years ago with halogen H7, the cost of this system is so minimum why BMW didn't just design similar system ?



You could ask Mercedes a variation of the same question, since they had a pretty good representation on the bottom of that list

 

[HTSS_TR]

A little off topic.

JHZR2 tried simple LED bulb in 1 of his 2 Honda's, I don't remember which one, and it produded very good illumination on dark road, much better than OEM halogen bulb.

The only concern is how hot the LED bulb JHZR2 tried can be, will it cause any problem if it is used few hours a night for several months or years.

From JHZR2 post about his trial with LED bulb, I think sometime a good solution can be achieved with not so much cost. A pair of good LED bulbs can be purchased for less than $100, and it may works well in a halogen headlight system.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
One thing I like to emphasize: If I buy cheap car(such as Honda) I don't expect much but when I pay premium for a luxury performance car such as BMW, MB ... I expect everything is better than cheap Japanese brands. It is not acceptable that a standard halogen headlight in a Honda illuminates better then a halogen headlight in a BMW, according to IIHS test.


One thing to keep in mind is that they just did the Mercedes C class and CLA class, which is their low end line. I wonder how the upper end like the E or S class or any of the GL classes would have compared. HIDs on German cars tended to be expensive, they did auto level and they had headlamp washers. In the later years, they also had the active curve illumination. But in their cost cutting, they got rid of them and just went with LED so they just have the curve illumination, but not the headlamp washers.


+1. The fact that OP keeps making these assumptions about euro makes is silly because in Europe, new E-class MBs are taxis, 5-series BMWs are rental cars (just had a brand new 530D rental for 2000km), and cars can be optioned much downmarket and are sold in an entirely different way than the brand-making geniuses here in the USA dupe the public.

What is perhaps most funny is that OP got caught in that trap.

And again what is perhaps most sad is how ALL automakers are providing utter garbage on the public who are still much more likely to buy halogens by numbers.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: HerrStig
I have an "el cheapo" Camry with 350K on the original drive train.
Anyone who calls that kind of quality "el cheapo" is a brainless car snob. BTW I do own a BMW bike. It's far from perfect.


And this has what to do with the topic at hand exactly???

Most any halogen headlight with replaceable bulbs will come along for the ride for 350k miles. So your point is what?

Our 94 Previa, which was killed by hurricane Sandy, was a wonderful vehicle which no doubt would still be running like new and close to 350k today had it survived. But I recall polishing its headlights to get the yellow off more than once.

So doubly, what exactly is your point in terms of modern vehicle headlight quality?

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
A little off topic.

JHZR2 tried simple LED bulb in 1 of his 2 Honda's, I don't remember which one, and it produded very good illumination on dark road, much better than OEM halogen bulb.

The only concern is how hot the LED bulb JHZR2 tried can be, will it cause any problem if it is used few hours a night for several months or years.

From JHZR2 post about his trial with LED bulb, I think sometime a good solution can be achieved with not so much cost. A pair of good LED bulbs can be purchased for less than $100, and it may works well in a halogen headlight system.


Yes in a 2015 accord. As the LED has a large heatsink outside of the light fixture, and dissipates at least 15W less power and creates photons in a more efficient manner, Id suspect that thermals are not an issue compared to the H11 bulbs.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: Wolf359
One thing to keep in mind is that they just did the Mercedes C class and CLA class, which is their low end line. I wonder how the upper end like the E or S class or any of the GL classes would have compared. HIDs on German cars tended to be expensive, they did auto level and they had headlamp washers. In the later years, they also had the active curve illumination. But in their cost cutting, they got rid of them and just went with LED so they just have the curve illumination, but not the headlamp washers.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
+1. The fact that OP keeps making these assumptions about euro makes is silly because in Europe, new E-class MBs are taxis, 5-series BMWs are rental cars (just had a brand new 530D rental for 2000km), and cars can be optioned much downmarket and are sold in an entirely different way than the brand-making geniuses here in the USA dupe the public.

What is perhaps most funny is that OP got caught in that trap.

And again what is perhaps most sad is how ALL automakers are providing utter garbage on the public who are still much more likely to buy halogens by numbers.

BMW, MB, Audi... are considered luxury brands in US. All their vehicles are more expensive than Asian and US counterparts.

If a standard halogen headlight of Honda Accord was rated as acceptable by IIHS then I expect all BMW, MB ... standard headlight system should be no lower than acceptable, and extra cost option should be in good category, not marginal or poor.

If the worst headlight system was from Kia or Chrysler ... I would understand and accept that but from BMW is not acceptable to me. I didn't own any BMW vehicle in my life, but I always respect this brand and this test headlight really let me down.

If MB did a good job with reflector headlight with standard halogen H7 bulb in 2000, there is no reason for anyone to design worse headlight 15 years later.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

BMW, MB, Audi... are considered luxury brands in US. All their vehicles are more expensive than Asian and US counterparts.


You have VERY selective memory. We've discussed this before.

The BWM 2-series ranges from $33,000 to $51,000 for MSRP
The BMW 3-series ranges from $34,000 to $50,000 for MSRP
The Audi A3 ranges from $32,000 to $41,000 for MSRP
The Mercedes C-Class ranges from $40,000 to $52,000 for MSRP

The Honda Accord ranges from $23,000 to $36,000 for MSRP
The Toyota Avalon ranges from $33,000 to $43,000 for MSRP (well look at that!)
The Toyota Camry ranges from $23,000 to $32,000 for MSRP
The Mazda 6 ranges from $22,000 to $31,000 for MSRP
The Nissan Maxima ranges from $33,000 to $41,000 for MSRP (oh look, another!)

The Ford Fusion ranges from $23,000 to $37,000 MSRP
The Buick LaCross ranges from $32,000 to $42,000 MSRP (oh look at that too!)
The Buick Regal ranges from $28,000 to $37,000 MSRP
The Chevy Impala ranges from $28,000 to $42,000 MSRP (another one!)
The Chevy SS has an MSRP of $48,000 (weird!!)

Now if we look at the Japanese Luxury marques:
The ACURA RLX is priced WAY above the 3-series at $52,000 to $67,000 which is 5-series territory.
The Infiniti Q50, the cheapest of their cars is again in 5-series territory starting at $48,000. The others are all even more expensive.
The Lexus ES starts at $39K, the IS at $38K. The LS is in 7-series territory with a sticker starting at $73K and going north of 120K.

The only car I can find that truly targets the 3-series from a Luxury marque is Cadillac with the ATS that hits the same price range at $34K to $53K.

As I said, and you keep ignoring, BMW does NOT have a separate luxury marque, which is why they break up the car ranges the way they do and why the price range is so broad for a given series. A base 3'er is NOT a Luxury car, no matter how many times you say it is. I've owned a 328i, it was nothing like my M5, which was in a whole other world (and whole other price bracket). My sister's 330i isn't designed to be luxurious, it is a sporty 4-door sedan that handles well and has decent interior and NVH. It is a lot like an Accord in many respects except it is RWD.

 

[Jetronic]

Originally Posted By: wrcsixeight
On the vehicles without self levelling lights, I wonder how well the lights were aimed on the vehicles from the factory.



The dealer has to aim the headlights prior to delivery...

 

[Jetronic]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
The headlight of 2000 MB E430 is E-code reflector with H7 halogen bulb, it is much brighter than LS400 with H4 bulb and brighter than Accord with projector and H11 bulb. Accord with H9 bulb is a little better than E430 with OEM bulb.

If MB could do good E-code headlight 15 years ago with halogen H7, the cost of this system is so minimum why BMW didn't just design similar system ?

I don't know how much LED headlight system cost, but so far I didn't see many good LED headlights on the road, their performance was very dismal with extreme hot spot on front of the car, more than 100-150 feet was very dark and totally black at 200-250 feet.


The light output of LED lights I tested was poor compared to HID. HID allows a much wider beam and possibly longer throw without sacrificing anything compared to LED, barring startup time.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

BMW, MB, Audi... are considered luxury brands in US. All their vehicles are more expensive than Asian and US counterparts.


Thats somewhat irrelevant, considering how many cars are sold the world over, and how they are set up in other markets, including their home market of Germany. What they are "considered" in the US is a fact of marketing... In Europe, Mercedes, as an example, sells vans, busses and tractor trailers. Are they all "luxury" too?

Overkill's data speaks volumes. I suspect a comparo on the European market would be even more telling...

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
The headlight of 2000 MB E430 is E-code reflector with H7 halogen bulb, it is much brighter than LS400 with H4 bulb and brighter than Accord with projector and H11 bulb. Accord with H9 bulb is a little better than E430 with OEM bulb.

If MB could do good E-code headlight 15 years ago with halogen H7, the cost of this system is so minimum why BMW didn't just design similar system ?

I don't know how much LED headlight system cost, but so far I didn't see many good LED headlights on the road, their performance was very dismal with extreme hot spot on front of the car, more than 100-150 feet was very dark and totally black at 200-250 feet.


The light output of LED lights I tested was poor compared to HID. HID allows a much wider beam and possibly longer throw without sacrificing anything compared to LED, barring startup time.


There's simply too much variation in the LED space to make a consistent comparison. At least HID retrofits are rebased "standard" HID bulbs with the hot spot aligned-ish to where it should be on a halogen. LEDs are all over the place...

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

BMW, MB, Audi... are considered luxury brands in US. All their vehicles are more expensive than Asian and US counterparts.


You have VERY selective memory. We've discussed this before.

The BWM 2-series ranges from $33,000 to $51,000 for MSRP
The BMW 3-series ranges from $34,000 to $50,000 for MSRP
The Audi A3 ranges from $32,000 to $41,000 for MSRP
The Mercedes C-Class ranges from $40,000 to $52,000 for MSRP

The Honda Accord ranges from $23,000 to $36,000 for MSRP
The Toyota Avalon ranges from $33,000 to $43,000 for MSRP (well look at that!)
The Toyota Camry ranges from $23,000 to $32,000 for MSRP
The Mazda 6 ranges from $22,000 to $31,000 for MSRP
The Nissan Maxima ranges from $33,000 to $41,000 for MSRP (oh look, another!)

The Ford Fusion ranges from $23,000 to $37,000 MSRP
The Buick LaCross ranges from $32,000 to $42,000 MSRP (oh look at that too!)
The Buick Regal ranges from $28,000 to $37,000 MSRP
The Chevy Impala ranges from $28,000 to $42,000 MSRP (another one!)
The Chevy SS has an MSRP of $48,000 (weird!!)

Now if we look at the Japanese Luxury marques:
The ACURA RLX is priced WAY above the 3-series at $52,000 to $67,000 which is 5-series territory.
The Infiniti Q50, the cheapest of their cars is again in 5-series territory starting at $48,000. The others are all even more expensive.
The Lexus ES starts at $39K, the IS at $38K. The LS is in 7-series territory with a sticker starting at $73K and going north of 120K.

The only car I can find that truly targets the 3-series from a Luxury marque is Cadillac with the ATS that hits the same price range at $34K to $53K.

As I said, and you keep ignoring, BMW does NOT have a separate luxury marque, which is why they break up the car ranges the way they do and why the price range is so broad for a given series. A base 3'er is NOT a Luxury car, no matter how many times you say it is. I've owned a 328i, it was nothing like my M5, which was in a whole other world (and whole other price bracket). My sister's 330i isn't designed to be luxurious, it is a sporty 4-door sedan that handles well and has decent interior and NVH. It is a lot like an Accord in many respects except it is RWD.

No, I don't have selective memory. Compare similar size and equipment such as BMW 5 series with Honda Accord(they are similar in size). The cheapest BMW 5-series costs a lot more than Accord. Same for BMW 3-series with Civic(they are similar in size).

What is wrong with $3x,xxx BMW 3-series with the worst headlight system of all 81 cars tested ? While the cheapest Honda Accord sedan that cost more than $10,000 cheaper with standard halogen headlight rated as Acceptable.

This is totally wrong with BMW. You can not advertised your vehicle as "Ultimate Driving Machine" with the worst headlight system, when the cheapest of 81 vehicle in the test is better. And when people were paying thousands dollar for upgrade headlight they only get marginal system, not a "Good" rating as Toyota Prius.

You can take a poll, nobody will equal Honda, Toyota, Mazda ... to BMW, MB, Audi ... When you are premium brand then provide premium product, inferior products and demand higher price is not acceptable in my book.

 

[SatinSilver]

I was recently reading in Forbes how the BMW 7 Series was the Number One new car to avoid:

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/ehmk45eedeh/1-bmw-7-series/

Followed by a list of other duds.

 

[HTSS_TR]

I apologize to everyone who read this thread.

I was a little upset with the performance of BMW headlight. I must say that I love the quad round headlight of all BMW cars in the last 20-30 years, especially the ones with halo rings. They were and are beautiful to look at, nothing else ever came close. My expectation of BMW headlight was so high I was so disappoint reading this report.

I let my disappoint get ahead of myself, for that I am sorry.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: Jetronic

The light output of LED lights I tested was poor compared to HID. HID allows a much wider beam and possibly longer throw without sacrificing anything compared to LED, barring startup time.
There's simply too much variation in the LED space to make a consistent comparison. At least HID retrofits are rebased "standard" HID bulbs with the hot spot aligned-ish to where it should be on a halogen. LEDs are all over the place...

I think Jetronic means OEM HID and LED, not retrofit with aftermarket parts.

So far, I think HID seems to be easier to design/engineer correctly compares with LED. May be because for low beam only 1 HID bulb is needed per side (driver&passenger), while many LED bulbs may be needed for each side.

This study showed that only 1 LED was good(Prius), the rest was not so good. It even got worse in case of Honda Accord.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

No, I don't have selective memory.


Yes. you do. And you will contort/distort the facts to suit your anti Euro-marque agenda. We've been down this road SEVERAL times now.

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Compare similar size and equipment such as BMW 5 series with Honda Accord(they are similar in size). The cheapest BMW 5-series costs a lot more than Accord. Same for BMW 3-series with Civic(they are similar in size).


And you just demonstrated what I mentioned above. The 3-series is Accord territory, the 5'er is not. The 2-series is perhaps Civic territory but I'd argue that's more for the 1-series. Honda doesn't make a car to compete with the 5-series, let alone the M5. It is a larger sedan than the Accord.


Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
What is wrong with $3x,xxx BMW 3-series with the worst headlight system of all 81 cars tested ? While the cheapest Honda Accord sedan that cost more than $10,000 cheaper with standard halogen headlight rated as Acceptable.


And the more expensive Honda Accord with the "better" headlights rated worse. You omitted that part, must have accidentally forgot it because agenda got in the way eh?

I don't know what is "wrong" with BMW's entry-level 3-series that their Halogen lights suck. We've been over this, they suck, they just do. You whining about it isn't going to fix it and the odds are BMW isn't going to fix it either because they want you to buy the optional better light package which, unlike Honda's, is actually BETTER.

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
This is totally wrong with BMW. You can not advertised your vehicle as "Ultimate Driving Machine" with the worst headlight system, when the cheapest of 81 vehicle in the test is better. And when people were paying thousands dollar for upgrade headlight they only get marginal system, not a "Good" rating as Toyota Prius.


Good God, do you hear yourself? The 3er with the halogens is an ENTRY LEVEL CAR from this marque. No matter how many times you pretend this isn't the case, that doesn't change that fact. Put an M5, M3, M6 or even the higher trim level cars not in the M-series in the hands of a competent driver (though this was more true in the past) and that's where that ADVERTISING SLOGAN came from. The cars were, historically, geared to be driven. That does not mean a frickin' 318i is a bloody M3!!! They are in the same SERIES but they are NOT the same car! You really are having a hard time with wrapping your head around the structure of BMW's lineup for some reason

And NONE of the cars OTHER THAN THE PRIUS got the GOOD rating, so what is your point? Even your beloved Honda didn't get GOOD. Quality headlights on the Prius no more makes it an ultimate driving machine than junk Halogens on an entry-level 3'er make it an M3.

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
You can take a poll, nobody will equal Honda, Toyota, Mazda ... to BMW, MB, Audi ... When you are premium brand then provide premium product, inferior products and demand higher price is not acceptable in my book.


Well obviously, since tons of people are out buying BMW's, Audi's and Benz's, they don't give two sweet dumps in the park about what's in your book. In fact the majority of the driving public will never see this study.

In the Euro market, as JHZR2 mentioned, these cars are taxis, rentals...etc your typical low cost sedans. It is the American market that has ascribed prestige to a marque and misunderstands, like you have aptly demonstrated time and time again, the structure of their lineup.

But you have, as per our past discussions, demonstrated a complete unwillingness to entertain viewpoints that are not your own or work to understand something outside your preformed viewpoint so this will, as it has before, fall on deaf ears and you will fain offence and we will continue this the next time around like this discussion never happened. Rinse, repeat.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I apologize to everyone who read this thread.

I was a little upset with the performance of BMW headlight. I must say that I love the quad round headlight of all BMW cars in the last 20-30 years, especially the ones with halo rings. They were and are beautiful to look at, nothing else ever came close. My expectation of BMW headlight was so high I was so disappoint reading this report.

I let my disappoint get ahead of myself, for that I am sorry.


The performance of the OEM projector HID's with the corona rings was, in my experience, quite good. I've owned two BMW's, and would own another in a heartbeat, I still miss my M5, it was an incredible car and really reaffirmed to me why they had the reputation for a driver's car that they had.

The issue is your misunderstanding of the structure of the BMW brand and, as I've said several times, the fact that BMW does not have a separate luxury arm, so their basic sedans and premium cars are all under the same lineup, which is why the pricing range for each series is so broad. Once you can accept and embrace that, you will understand why a base 3'er doesn't come with great standard equipment.

Maybe to put this in Honda terms: The Accord and the Acura TLX are essential the same car. The Accord starts at $23,000 and runs up to $35K, the TLX starts at $32K and runs up to $46K. BMW doesn't price as low as the Accord (which is probably related to higher manufacturing costs and the fact the car is RWD), but the base 3'er is essentially on-par with a medium optioned Accord. Start adding options and you get into TLX territory and it will top out at a similar max price point.

The same basically goes for Mercedes, which doesn't have any other derivative brands so it is "all under one roof" so to speak. Though Mercedes doesn't offer something price-competitive with the lower-series BMW models. Audi is a bit different because they are a VAG product, so the lower-priced VW options are out there.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
BMW, MB, Audi... are considered luxury brands in US. All their vehicles are more expensive than Asian and US counterparts.


I think you totally misunderstood what it means to be a luxury brand. I gave a ride to someone in my Mercedes and he thought that because it costs 2-3x what a regular car should cost, it's way more reliable, but that can't be further from the truth. It has a lot of complex systems and those are less reliable than regular stuff. For instance the pano roof is known to squeak, and the regular one doesn't. I still like the pano over a regular sunroof though. Had to replace some motor mounts, they failed in under 70k, you would think that when a regular car can go at least 100k or more without replacing motor mounts, that Mercedes would be better, but they're worse because they used liquid filled mounts instead of just standard rubber ones. May provide for a smoother ride, but fails earlier. Anyway, I still enjoy driving it, it's very smooth and quiet.

 

[Gasbuggy]

Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

BMW, MB, Audi... are considered luxury brands in US. All their vehicles are more expensive than Asian and US counterparts.


You have VERY selective memory. We've discussed this before.

The BWM 2-series ranges from $33,000 to $51,000 for MSRP
The BMW 3-series ranges from $34,000 to $50,000 for MSRP
The Audi A3 ranges from $32,000 to $41,000 for MSRP
The Mercedes C-Class ranges from $40,000 to $52,000 for MSRP

The Honda Accord ranges from $23,000 to $36,000 for MSRP
The Toyota Avalon ranges from $33,000 to $43,000 for MSRP (well look at that!)
The Toyota Camry ranges from $23,000 to $32,000 for MSRP
The Mazda 6 ranges from $22,000 to $31,000 for MSRP
The Nissan Maxima ranges from $33,000 to $41,000 for MSRP (oh look, another!)

The Ford Fusion ranges from $23,000 to $37,000 MSRP
The Buick LaCross ranges from $32,000 to $42,000 MSRP (oh look at that too!)
The Buick Regal ranges from $28,000 to $37,000 MSRP
The Chevy Impala ranges from $28,000 to $42,000 MSRP (another one!)
The Chevy SS has an MSRP of $48,000 (weird!!)

Now if we look at the Japanese Luxury marques:
The ACURA RLX is priced WAY above the 3-series at $52,000 to $67,000 which is 5-series territory.
The Infiniti Q50, the cheapest of their cars is again in 5-series territory starting at $48,000. The others are all even more expensive.
The Lexus ES starts at $39K, the IS at $38K. The LS is in 7-series territory with a sticker starting at $73K and going north of 120K.

The only car I can find that truly targets the 3-series from a Luxury marque is Cadillac with the ATS that hits the same price range at $34K to $53K.

As I said, and you keep ignoring, BMW does NOT have a separate luxury marque, which is why they break up the car ranges the way they do and why the price range is so broad for a given series. A base 3'er is NOT a Luxury car, no matter how many times you say it is. I've owned a 328i, it was nothing like my M5, which was in a whole other world (and whole other price bracket). My sister's 330i isn't designed to be luxurious, it is a sporty 4-door sedan that handles well and has decent interior and NVH. It is a lot like an Accord in many respects except it is RWD.

No, I don't have selective memory. Compare similar size and equipment such as BMW 5 series with Honda Accord(they are similar in size). The cheapest BMW 5-series costs a lot more than Accord. Same for BMW 3-series with Civic(they are similar in size).

What is wrong with $3x,xxx BMW 3-series with the worst headlight system of all 81 cars tested ? While the cheapest Honda Accord sedan that cost more than $10,000 cheaper with standard halogen headlight rated as Acceptable.

This is totally wrong with BMW. You can not advertised your vehicle as "Ultimate Driving Machine" with the worst headlight system, when the cheapest of 81 vehicle in the test is better. And when people were paying thousands dollar for upgrade headlight they only get marginal system, not a "Good" rating as Toyota Prius.

You can take a poll, nobody will equal Honda, Toyota, Mazda ... to BMW, MB, Audi ... When you are premium brand then provide premium product, inferior products and demand higher price is not acceptable in my book.


I agree with this, a 3 series should not come with substandard lighting, regardless of what level 3 series it is.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Gasbuggy


I agree with this, a 3 series should not come with substandard lighting, regardless of what level 3 series it is.


No car should come with substandard lighting and the Prius, of all vehicles, shouldn't be expected to be the only car with lights that are "good". BMW has become the whipping boy in this thread but there were a a good number of cars from a rather broad range of manufacturers who had lighting bringing up the bottom of the list.