Castrol GTX 15w50 Zddp content?

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FCD

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I've found a pretty good deal on Castrol GTX 15w50 , i wanted to know if any of you knew what the zddp content of this oil is since i heard it's been reduced as of lately? And am i better off with Valvoline VR1 since i can also get it for a similar price? I also found Castrol Power 1 20w50 which is pretty decent butvit was 10 Euro a litre
 
GTX 15-50, It's probably this PDS (cut & paste, I can't make the link active)

http://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/F71811E107D3750E80257AF30053F711/$File/BPXE-93YH6W.pdf

But it doesn't list zinc level or TBN etc. Sulphated Ash is 0.99 which suggests it's OK.

If it's the same price, I would go the VR-1 as it's more of a special racing oil, which suggests a bit more development behind it.

Mostly I'm guessing, based on very slim PDS sheets that contain little real information (both from Valvoline and Castrol).
 
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Here's a tip...

Oil companies and AddCo's don't usually formulate 'an oil' for a single market. They formulate a global family of oils all at the same time; all using the same DI (at the same treat rate) and the same VII (at variable treat rate). They do this to minimise test spend and build in rationalisation for their worldwide blend plants. Classically, outside of the US, you will formulate 10W30, 10W40, 15W40, 15W50, 20W40 and 20W50 oils simultaneously. This will cover the full spectrum of predominantly mineral oil based grades.

This being the case, if say you know the ZDDP content of one member of the family, there's an odds on chance you know it for all members of the family. The other thing that's sort of worth knowing is that it's the wider viscosity grades (10W40 & 15W50) that tend to dictate the DI additive treat rate. This generally means that the narrower grades (10W30,15W40 & 20W50) tend to be a bit over formulated but in a good way.

Personally I'd avoid 15W50's. They contain great gobs of VII polymer which is usually bad news. Go for a 15W40 of a 20W50 instead.
 
I've also heard that currently GTX has a zddp content of about 600 ppm which is way too low for me , VR1 has over twice that at 1300ppm i think, Valvoline has atted though that the average flat tappet cmahsfat with average valve spring pressures only require around 800ppm , but i'd still like to be on the safe side of things my Capri has no catalytic converter/s so i don't have to worry about that, VR1 has a TBN of 12.0 do you think that'd be good for 18 months or 2 years? i'm thinking that maybe 1 year is not really neccesary
 
Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
This being the case, if say you know the ZDDP content of one member of the family, there's an odds on chance you know it for all members of the family.

I suppose that creates the side effect, particularly in North America, where the 20w-50 is quite likely to have the same phosphorus numbers as the ILSAC rated grades.
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Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
This being the case, if say you know the ZDDP content of one member of the family, there's an odds on chance you know it for all members of the family.

I suppose that creates the side effect, particularly in North America, where the 20w-50 is quite likely to have the same phosphorus numbers as the ILSAC rated grades.
wink.gif



Yep, and in Australia some Castrol tech people have suggested to me that all the synthetic Edge products have about 1000 ppm Zn. Hence the Edge 5W-30 A3/B4 being API SL rather than SN.
 
I haven't seen a lot of VOAs on "oddball" grades here, but the few that I've seen where it was an SAE 30 or a 20w-50 or something that is of a brand and tier that is a popular ILSAC variety (i.e. PYB), do show the lower phosphorus, matching the ILSAC stuff, which isn't a concern elsewhere. Here, there is little concern to standardize additive packages to A3/B4 or to C3 even.

So, while 10w-40 and 20w-50 are non-ILSAC grades and don't face the phosphorus limits, I do tend to recommend that people not expect those to have higher phosphorus, unless a product specifically advertises more, or has more by virtue of some other specification. No limit doesn't mean unlimited.
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At least with a CJ-4, E7, E9 15w-40 or an A3/B4 lubricant there are going to be some elevated baselines.
 
Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
I've also heard that currently GTX has a zddp content of about 600 ppm which is way too low for me , VR1 has over twice that at 1300ppm i think, Valvoline has atted though that the average flat tappet cmahsfat with average valve spring pressures only require around 800ppm , but i'd still like to be on the safe side of things my Capri has no catalytic converter/s so i don't have to worry about that, VR1 has a TBN of 12.0 do you think that'd be good for 18 months or 2 years? i'm thinking that maybe 1 year is not really neccesary


TBH, for an old car like the Capri, VR1 20W50 is pretty much ideal. The only beef I might have with it is it's price; over £20 a can is daylight robbery! Just out of curiosity, how many miles a year do you do in the Capri as that would have a bearing in how long VR1 would last?
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
This being the case, if say you know the ZDDP content of one member of the family, there's an odds on chance you know it for all members of the family.

I suppose that creates the side effect, particularly in North America, where the 20w-50 is quite likely to have the same phosphorus numbers as the ILSAC rated grades.
wink.gif



North American 20W50's are something of an exception to the 'family' rule. Usually US programs start with a 5W30 Group II core program because a lot of stuff 'reads up' to other viscosity grades from such a program (including a lot of 20W50 tests). However one test that doesn't read up is TEOST MHT-4 and 20W50 Group II TEOST can be a real pain in the backside for all formulators. You often need to add a tonne of expensive AO on top of the core DI to get this meaningless test to pass. You can end up in a situation where it's easier and cheaper to treat 20W50 Group II as a stand-alone program, max out on ZDDP (which solves your TEOST problem) and dump all the extraneous expensive stuff.

So in answer to your question, yes it is conceivable for a US 20W50 to be constrained by the ILSAC Phos limits but in reality, I suspect it isn't.
 
i do around 1200 to 2000 miles a year , i use it pretty regularly and get it up to temp but i think i do more short trips that most people would with such a car, usually once or twice a year i'll take a ferry to the Mainland from Mallorca and do about 1000 miles in a couple of days usually during summerd o you think i should stick to 1 year oil changes or could i go a bit longer using VR1 with a TBN of 12.0?
 
Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
So in answer to your question, yes it is conceivable for a US 20W50 to be constrained by the ILSAC Phos limits but in reality, I suspect it isn't.

Well, that is interesting. I've seen low ones, and high ones, like VR1. Of course, we don't see a huge number of 20w-50 VOAs, so I should be careful about generalizing based upon what I do see. Now, do 20w-50 options in Great Britain stick to API certifications, or do they ever have anything else? Here, I just tend to see SN certifications on 20w-50 examples, like GTX and whatnot. I can't recall seeing ACEA specifications even mentioned, let alone claimed.

Of course, 20w-50 is getting a bit harder to find here, particularly in this province. Castrol has it, but if it's a conceivable viscosity, they'll have it on the shelves in Canada. Mobil won't; Imperial Oil simply discontinued all 40 grades and higher in Canada except HDEOs, Euro stuff, and motorcycle or racing specific options.
 
Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
i do around 1200 to 2000 miles a year , i use it pretty regularly and get it up to temp but i think i do more short trips that most people would with such a car, usually once or twice a year i'll take a ferry to the Mainland from Mallorca and do about 1000 miles in a couple of days usually during summerd o you think i should stick to 1 year oil changes or could i go a bit longer using VR1 with a TBN of 12.0?


If that's all you're doing, I'd say a sump full of VR1 is good for three years at least! Of course, it's easy for me to say that because it's not my car. You might want to be a bit more conservative and go 18 months or two years but it should be fine.

If it helps any, the oil in the wife's Toyota Aygo is over three years old. I refuse to change it because she does so few miles each year (467 when I last checked). Engine oil is not like bread. It does not go stale or mouldy. If it's not getting exposed to heat and blow-by gases, it's incredibly stable.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
So in answer to your question, yes it is conceivable for a US 20W50 to be constrained by the ILSAC Phos limits but in reality, I suspect it isn't.

Well, that is interesting. I've seen low ones, and high ones, like VR1. Of course, we don't see a huge number of 20w-50 VOAs, so I should be careful about generalizing based upon what I do see. Now, do 20w-50 options in Great Britain stick to API certifications, or do they ever have anything else? Here, I just tend to see SN certifications on 20w-50 examples, like GTX and whatnot. I can't recall seeing ACEA specifications even mentioned, let alone claimed.

Of course, 20w-50 is getting a bit harder to find here, particularly in this province. Castrol has it, but if it's a conceivable viscosity, they'll have it on the shelves in Canada. Mobil won't; Imperial Oil simply discontinued all 40 grades and higher in Canada except HDEOs, Euro stuff, and motorcycle or racing specific options.



If you find a 20W50 in North America, chances are it's API only (eg API SN).

In Europe, a 20W50 is more likely to be API with ACEA and possibly a bit of low tier OEM spec thrown in for good measure. However what you see on the can may not reflect the full capability of the oil. It may surprise you but oil companies will often 'under claim' what a 'perceived' low tier oil (like a 20W50) can do because they want to preserve the global 'Meets Needs, Good, Better, Best' marketing message. They may for example just label the can API SL. Obviously they want you to buy 'The Best' with its myriad spec list and don't want to 'confuse' you by telling you that their 20W50 actually does SL/CF/A3/B3/B4/MB229.1/VW505!!
 
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I Was surprised to find out that the current oil i'm running , Shell HX3 has a TBN of just 6.2, even more of a reason to switch to VR1 i guess
 
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Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
I Was surprised to find out that the current oil i'm running , Shell HX3 has a TBN of just 6.2, even more of a reason to switch to VR1 i guess


FCD, I agree with you. I think most modern 20W-50 oils are made to be the cheap oil of the range now days. It's hard to find hard data, but I've been going through many of the Castrol GTX 20W-50 PDS sheets from various places. The one for the Americas gives a TBN of 7.4 and the one for Canada gives a HTHS of 3.7 (not sure if this is the real value or the min J300 requirement). Most give no data on zinc but I suspect Garak is correct and it will have ILSAC levels of zinc at 600 to 800 ppm.

The race oils cost more, but they are a premium product. The Valvoline VR-1 20W-50 has a TBN of 12 and about 1300 ppm Zinc. The Penrite HPR 30 (20W-60) has a HTHS of 6.2 cP, TBN of 9.7 and 1570 ppm Zinc.

I would avoid the GTX & HX3 type oils and instead go for the premium VR-1 & HPR 30 style oils. They are both much more oil.
 
It's funny that at the same store , HX3 is 35 Euro / 5L , VR1 is 33 despite the fact that VR1 is a far superior oil, i'll be ordering online now though since the place i buy it is 100 Km away and i'd spend more on fuel going there with the Capri compared to ordering online
 
Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
It's funny that at the same store , HX3 is 35 Euro / 5L , VR1 is 33 despite the fact that VR1 is a far superior oil,


Then it's VR-1 all day, every day. You have found your oil and Joe90 says with that high TBN and your low miles, you can do an extended OCI. Sounds good to me.
 
The choice is yours man, but IMO you'll have much more where to chooze if you include some racing viscosities like 10W-50 and 10W-60 in your search. I'm sure a largely available oil like Castrol Edge (Titanium FST) 10W-60 or other similar one won't be much more expensive than the archaic 20W-50 dino elixirs you're looking for, but quality-wise it would be much superior, will have much better cold start behaviour, much higher HTHS and with that better protection at high temperatures and is generally quite a superior product. I know some spanish web sites (Pidenosaceite.com por ejemplo) where Edge 10W-60 has almost the same price as the Valvoline VR1 20W-50 that you are talking about, but it's up to you man.
 
Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
In Europe, a 20W50 is more likely to be API with ACEA and possibly a bit of low tier OEM spec thrown in for good measure. However what you see on the can may not reflect the full capability of the oil.

Well, that's quite interesting. Of course, I wouldn't be surprised of an oil meeting more than its basic specifications, especially a heavier grade. There's certainly no reason why a 20w-50 on the shelf might not meet a relatively modern diesel specification, not to mention the other stuff you mention. We just see SN here, and it's always nice to know what is seen elsewhere.

Personally, if I had to use a 20w-50 conventional for something, particularly a classic of some sort, VR1 is just about impossible to beat for price here, and at least it advertises the higher phosphorus. If it had to be synthetic, of course there are boutiques that cater to that.
 
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