5w30 A5/B5 and API SN possible?

[slybunda]

im not sure how this is possible, when A5/B5 oil has hths less than 3.5 but api SN needs hths greater than 3.5?

this shell oil seems to be graded for both:
http://www.shell.com/motorist/oils-lubri...a-sn-5w-30.html

PDS:
https://prodepc.blob.core.windows.net/epcblobstorage/GPCDOC_GTDS_Shell_Helix_Ultra_SN_5W-30_(SN_GF-5)_(en)_TDS.pdf

odd that hths is not actually listed.

also i cant seem to find this oil anywhere for sale, not sure if its new?

 

[Garak]

API SN can have any HTHS, dependent upon SAE J300 rules. In fact, an SN 5w-30 with ILSAC rating will have an HTHS of under 3.5 each time.

 

[Virtus_Probi]

I wonder if this is the same as Pennzoil Ultra 5W30 in the US...it also claims to meet both of those standards.
http://www.pennzoil.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Pennzoil-Ultra-Platinum-5W-30-SN-GF-5-en-TDS.pdf

 

[Pontual]

Yes, look like they're the same rebranded product.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: slybunda
api SN needs hths greater than 3.5?

Since when?

 

[slybunda]

not sure i was asking the question if it was or isnt?

 

[Pontual]

Doesnt matter, my oil never get near 150C, the most is at 90-100C, average sump is 70C, half the temperature to measure HSHT. Not even on bearjngs get 150 and there the pressure acts helping to keep the oil in one part.

 

[volodymyr]

Pontual,

Originally Posted By: Pontual
Doesnt matter, my oil never get near 150C, the most is at 90-100C, average sump is 70C, half the temperature to measure HSHT. Not even on bearjngs get 150 and there the pressure acts helping to keep the oil in one part.


I think that HTHS is measured at 150 C not because it is just a nice number. It is the usual temp which is reached by oil near pistons as well as in the area of crankshaft bearings.

 

[weasley]

Originally Posted By: volodymyr
Pontual,

Originally Posted By: Pontual
Doesnt matter, my oil never get near 150C, the most is at 90-100C, average sump is 70C, half the temperature to measure HSHT. Not even on bearjngs get 150 and there the pressure acts helping to keep the oil in one part.


I think that HTHS is measured at 150 C not because it is just a nice number. It is the usual temp which is reached by oil near pistons as well as in the area of crankshaft bearings.


Exactly this. Bulk oil temperature may not get that high wherever the thermocouple is, but your oil does get hotter than 150°C every time you use it. The HTHS test essentially mimics crankshaft journals and the protection they might get from the oil's underlying viscosity. Not to mention the cylinder and piston ring zones, turbocharger bearings etc.

 

[Pontual]

Originally Posted By: volodymyr
Pontual,

Originally Posted By: Pontual
Doesnt matter, my oil never get near 150C, the most is at 90-100C, average sump is 70C, half the temperature to measure HSHT. Not even on bearjngs get 150 and there the pressure acts helping to keep the oil in one part.


I think that HTHS is measured at 150 C not because it is just a nice number. It is the usual temp which is reached by oil near pistons as well as in the area of crankshaft bearings.


High shear at High temp, isnt temporary shearing at peak temperature, since bearing and ring pack environment is occuring for pretty low period of time. So, at bearing you can count for fraction of a second. HTHS test Astm cycle the oil is constanly at 150C flowing in an also constant high shear kind of stress. What I did mention is temporary temp peaks and shear (bearings), in my case as I dont run turboed neither muscled.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Pontual
High shear at High temp, isnt temporary shearing at peak temperature, since bearing and ring pack environment is occuring for pretty low period of time. So, at bearing you can count for fraction of a second. HTHS test Astm cycle the oil is constanly at 150C flowing in an also constant high shear kind of stress. What I did mention is temporary temp peaks and shear (bearings), in my case as I dont run turboed neither muscled.


Pontual,
we've been over this multiple, multiple times...

In a bearing the oil temperature easily reaches 150C, and the shear rates over 10^6 are easily achieved.

The bearings are generating enough heat for it to flow FROM the bearing and into the coolant and the Big ends of the con rods.

In the pistons, the residence time is of the order of 10 whole seconds, which is comparatively forever in the scheme of things.

As per my own testing on the Caprice, I can commute my 25km in top gear, 1,800RPM, and have oil temperatures (type K thermocouple down the dipstick) of 105C...do the same trip in "2" with 4,000RPM, exactly the same road load, and it's 135C in there.

Here's a pic lifted from a paper, showing the temperature rise at the big end (LHS scale) versus sump oil temperatures (RHS scale)

Different paper, 1.3L engine at 4,000RPM

Same engine at 6,000 RPM

NOTE the heat flow from the heat generated in the bearing oil film INTO the conrod and water jacket.

As to rings and residence time

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3372187/Oil_ring_belt_residence_time_a

 

[weasley]

Just to add, if you turn an engine over with an electric motor, with no combustion, the oil will reach 'working temperature' through friction and shear alone.

 

[Jetronic]

Thats basically what an air compressor is, and we all know they get hot.

 

[CT8]

Hydraulic systems gets the oil hot as well.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: weasley
Just to add, if you turn an engine over with an electric motor, with no combustion, the oil will reach 'working temperature' through friction and shear alone.


Yep, here's one of those also.

Engine set up to not fire, motored at 200RPM, with different starting temperatures.

Clearly the colder, more viscous oil generates more heat, and warms quicker.