Oil Friction Tests

Status
Not open for further replies.
S

superior_power

Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
22
Location
Missouri
I am having a discussion with some folks about oil quality. I was hoping to search the forum for answers but couldn't find a search field. I may be missing it but... Here is my question:

I know some oil companies use different "friction tests" to demonstrate the effectiveness of the lubricating abilities of their brand or products. Where can I find a video of an independent friction test between common off-the-shelf engine oils (small gas engines). I have a guy that insists it doesn't matter what brand you use as long as it's 10w30 (a common viscosity for small air-cooled gasoline engines). Having seen the oil break down of Pennzoil and other bottom of the barrel brands and the clean insides of engines with quality oils, I understand the necessity to use quality life blood (engine oil) but I was trying to find a way to demonstrate the friction reduction qualities of quality vs cheap oils.

If this has been answered before, please help me find the thread or video. If it's in the wrong place, feel free to move it.

Thanks in advance!
 
Excellent query. That's a question I have almost every time I buy oil or think about doing so. Looking forward to some good answers from folks who know more than me. Only thing I can think of is that there are some YouTube videos out there doing dyno tests where they actually do show a difference in peak horsepower when they run different oils. Don't have the exact title or link to it but I've watched it several times and it seems valid on the surface the way they do the tests.
 
Probably time for you to "duck and cover". You may get a number of responses, but let me condense what most will say:

1) Pennzoil is regarded here as the best or arguably the best conventional oil available in the U.S. None of its products are "...bottom of the barrel...".

2) You don't need to look for independent tests (wont find any reputable ones anyway), but the work has been done for you. Any oil that meets the API spec (e.g. "SN") in the specified viscosity will be just fine. This has been proven time after time here through used oil analyses. You may want to stick to major brands and run a synthetic if it makes you feel better, but there's no need to agonize over the choice.
 
This is a MUCH more complicated topic than it seems. Let me give you a brief idea.

First, what exactly do we mean by "friction?" No metal-to-metal contact? In that case, thicker would be better. But going thicker would increase friction between the oil and the metal, as well as pumping losses at the oil pump.

Then you have to think about what area of the engine you're talking about. Piston rings? Crank bearings? Wrist pins? Cam lobes? All involve different amounts and kinds of shear, different temperature ranges, different oil supplies, different mechanical pressures. Some are going to depend mostly on the oil's ability to maintain a hydrodynamic film. Others are going to depend more on additives.

Any simple test would only show one aspect of the oil at a time, if that. One could test the whole engine at once, e.g. with a dyno run, but it's unlikely there'd be significant and repeatable differences -- and even if there were, there'd be no way to tell WHY those differences came up. Is the oil actually reducing friction in a way that decreases wear? Or, is it just losing a ton of viscosity in the critical parts of the engine, causing lower internal resistance but more wear? If it is reducing friction with no downsides, is it doing that everywhere in the engine, or only in a few key parts while the rest wear out faster? What about oil temps? And so on.

And this is before we get into all of the other important properties of the oil, like how it resists chemical and thermal breakdown, how it controls deposits, etc. If an oil is better at reducing friction in a single test, but worse in all of those other areas, it could be a worse product overall.

That's just a brief layman's sketch, but the point is there's no simple test that would tell you anything worth knowing. Engine and lubricant testing takes a long time, a lot of effort, and a lot of machines to get right.
 
Originally Posted By: Danh
Probably time for you to "duck and cover". You may get a number of responses, but let me condense what most will say:

1) Pennzoil is regarded here as the best or arguably the best conventional oil available in the U.S. None of its products are "...bottom of the barrel...".

2) You don't need to look for independent tests (wont find any reputable ones anyway), but the work has been done for you. Any oil that meets the API spec (e.g. "SN") in the specified viscosity will be just fine. This has been proven time after time here through used oil analyses. You may want to stick to major brands and run a synthetic if it makes you feel better, but there's no need to agonize over the choice.
+1 on Pennzoil, another Dunning/Kruger syndrome candidate.
 
Originally Posted By: Danh
Probably time for you to "duck and cover". You may get a number of responses, but let me condense what most will say:

1) Pennzoil is regarded here as the best or arguably the best conventional oil available in the U.S. None of its products are "...bottom of the barrel...".

2) You don't need to look for independent tests (wont find any reputable ones anyway), but the work has been done for you. Any oil that meets the API spec (e.g. "SN") in the specified viscosity will be just fine. This has been proven time after time here through used oil analyses. You may want to stick to major brands and run a synthetic if it makes you feel better, but there's no need to agonize over the choice.


My response:

1a) Air cooled engines tend to run a lot hotter than liquid cooled engines.

1b) I have seen where Pennzoil broke down and was a pile of sludge in the bottom of the engine. I think you can probably attribute part of that to extended oil change intervals but the owners were surprised when I asked them if they used Pennzoil. The answer was always "yes."

2)You are correct that the work was already done to an extent. But, I believe I am correct when I say that some of the better manufacturers not only meet but rather exceed the specs. Its not just about feeling better but I BELIEVE its about being better. I am looking for a way to demonstrate ways to teach others the difference in oils.

Hopefully I can get some help.
 
Originally Posted By: superior_power
Originally Posted By: Danh
Probably time for you to "duck and cover". You may get a number of responses, but let me condense what most will say:

1) Pennzoil is regarded here as the best or arguably the best conventional oil available in the U.S. None of its products are "...bottom of the barrel...".

2) You don't need to look for independent tests (wont find any reputable ones anyway), but the work has been done for you. Any oil that meets the API spec (e.g. "SN") in the specified viscosity will be just fine. This has been proven time after time here through used oil analyses. You may want to stick to major brands and run a synthetic if it makes you feel better, but there's no need to agonize over the choice.


My response:

1a) Air cooled engines tend to run a lot hotter than liquid cooled engines.

1b) I have seen where Pennzoil broke down and was a pile of sludge in the bottom of the engine. I think you can probably attribute part of that to extended oil change intervals but the owners were surprised when I asked them if they used Pennzoil. The answer was always "yes."

2)You are correct that the work was already done to an extent. But, I believe I am correct when I say that some of the better manufacturers not only meet but rather exceed the specs. Its not just about feeling better but I BELIEVE its about being better. I am looking for a way to demonstrate ways to teach others the difference in oils.

Hopefully I can get some help.



I curious how many years ago this was?

All too often I run into people (especially old timers) who use examples from a half a century ago and claim it's still relevant today.

Even an experience 10 years ago is likely not applicable. Things change. Companies are bought out, base oils, formulations, add packs- they are all different.

The Pennzoil of today (along with ANY lubricant from a major manufacturer) is an excellent product.
 
Pretty much the only video of a "friction test" is going to be of the one armed bandit falex tester and it will likely neither be independent nor valid.

Most friction tests are just not photogenic and make for terrible videos. My company has tried a few times to film ours, but they always come out badly. The tests are much more for function than form and are not flashy enough to make a good video. An independent source might not care about the marketing aspect of it, but then again the rigs aren't exactly cheap; so whoever did it would have to be pretty dedicated.

Then comes the next issue, which test is the best indicator of frictional characteristics?
 
Originally Posted By: MotoTribologist
Pretty much the only video of a "friction test" is going to be of the one armed bandit falex tester and it will likely neither be independent nor valid.

Most friction tests are just not photogenic and make for terrible videos. My company has tried a few times to film ours, but they always come out badly. The tests are much more for function than form and are not flashy enough to make a good video. An independent source might not care about the marketing aspect of it, but then again the rigs aren't exactly cheap; so whoever did it would have to be pretty dedicated.

Then comes the next issue, which test is the best indicator of frictional characteristics?


I am open to learn. The ones I was watching was what I believe some refer to as the one arm bandit. I suspect that any "interested party" can manipulate it however they want it to go. I watched an Amsoil video talking about how it could be manipulated but they were even manipulating it beyond what they talked about. I did find a supposed "independent study" with photos but no video.

I am interested in learning what is the best real life test. Perhaps extended run times while being tested constantly? I feel there are too many variables to say my engine did this when I used this oil for 3 months of driving to and from work but it did this during the next 3 months to and from work with a different oil.

I had to smile that someone above referred to me in a derogatory manner. But that is OK. Its on them.
 
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
Originally Posted By: superior_power
Originally Posted By: Danh
Probably time for you to "duck and cover". You may get a number of responses, but let me condense what most will say:

1) Pennzoil is regarded here as the best or arguably the best conventional oil available in the U.S. None of its products are "...bottom of the barrel...".

2) You don't need to look for independent tests (wont find any reputable ones anyway), but the work has been done for you. Any oil that meets the API spec (e.g. "SN") in the specified viscosity will be just fine. This has been proven time after time here through used oil analyses. You may want to stick to major brands and run a synthetic if it makes you feel better, but there's no need to agonize over the choice.


My response:

1a) Air cooled engines tend to run a lot hotter than liquid cooled engines.

1b) I have seen where Pennzoil broke down and was a pile of sludge in the bottom of the engine. I think you can probably attribute part of that to extended oil change intervals but the owners were surprised when I asked them if they used Pennzoil. The answer was always "yes."

2)You are correct that the work was already done to an extent. But, I believe I am correct when I say that some of the better manufacturers not only meet but rather exceed the specs. Its not just about feeling better but I BELIEVE its about being better. I am looking for a way to demonstrate ways to teach others the difference in oils.

Hopefully I can get some help.



I curious how many years ago this was?

All too often I run into people (especially old timers) who use examples from a half a century ago and claim it's still relevant today.

Even an experience 10 years ago is likely not applicable. Things change. Companies are bought out, base oils, formulations, add packs- they are all different.

The Pennzoil of today (along with ANY lubricant from a major manufacturer) is an excellent product.


Not sure how many but it was a few years back. Thanks for reminding me how formulations can change in that time period.
 
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Originally Posted By: Danh
Probably time for you to "duck and cover". You may get a number of responses, but let me condense what most will say:

1) Pennzoil is regarded here as the best or arguably the best conventional oil available in the U.S. None of its products are "...bottom of the barrel...".

2) You don't need to look for independent tests (wont find any reputable ones anyway), but the work has been done for you. Any oil that meets the API spec (e.g. "SN") in the specified viscosity will be just fine. This has been proven time after time here through used oil analyses. You may want to stick to major brands and run a synthetic if it makes you feel better, but there's no need to agonize over the choice.
+1 on Pennzoil, another Dunning/Kruger syndrome candidate.


oooookay.... :)

A man comes here to learn and discuss his experiences and is called unskilled. You may very well know a lot more than I do, how am I to trust you?
 
Originally Posted By: superior_power
I know some oil companies use different "friction tests" to demonstrate the effectiveness of the lubricating abilities of their brand or products.

Here is one:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2990547

Just consider the source as well as that some of these tests may not be representative of what's going on inside a combustion engine.

The question you asked is really not as easy to answer as you might think. However, by meeting various industry specs such as API or ACEA, you are being assured a minimum level of quality/performance that already takes into account results of various standardized tests. And yes, it is true that one oil can exceed the minimums more than another oil, but at some point, you are getting into the splitting hairs territory. Are these minute differences fun to discuss for an average BITOGer? Maybe. But are these differences large enough to be relevant to your car's engine during its expected 200K-300K mi useful life? Maybe not.

Quote:
Having seen the oil break down of Pennzoil and other bottom of the barrel brands

Pennzoil is not a bottom of the barrel brand, at least not in 2016.
 
Originally Posted By: superior_power
Not sure how many but it was a few years back. Thanks for reminding me how formulations can change in that time period.


A few years back? In any case, the problem you saw was not due to the oil if indeed it was Pennzoil.

No way it is a "bottom of the barrel" product in any way.
 
Originally Posted By: superior_power
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: superior_power
Is anyone familiar with this?

http://www.animegame.com/cars/Oil Tests.pdf

Yes. Proven invalid and retracted.


Proven invalid because of method of testing?

Yes. Test is not relevant to what happens inside a combustion engine, for the most part. Shampoo does great on this test, but shampoo does not make a good engine lubricant...




And one of the many previous discussions of the aforementioned 'test':
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2348331
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

MolaKule
Chemical Components of a DI Additive package II
Replies
8
Views
2K
bruce381
paulri
Comparing TDI3 test to Sequence IIIH
Replies
15
Views
1K
MolaKule
A
Is there a difference between ILSAC GF-6a and API SP-RC?
2
Replies
22
Views
5K
kschachn
J
Fork oil differences besides viscosity?
2
Replies
34
Views
1K
ChristianReske
C
Do you think they are testing oil filters correctly?
2
Replies
20
Views
1K
Mewbs
Back
Top