Rotella T6 in Subaru H6 high fuel content ?

[Dupree]

OIL ROTELA T6 5W40
MILES IN USE 5,995
MILES 139,803
SAMPLE TAKEN 2/5/2016

ALUMINUM 3
CHROMIUM 1
IRON 10
COPPER 2
LEAD 2
TIN 0
MOLYBDENUM 69
NICKEL 0
MANGANESE 0
SILVER 0
TITANIUM 0
POTASSIUM 5
BORON 29
SILICON 4
SODIUM 16
CALCIUM 888
MAGNESIUM 1188
PHOSPHORUS 996
ZINC 1238
BARIUM 0

INSOLUBLES 0.2
WATER % 0
FLASHPOINT ºF 340
SUS VIS 210ºF 70.2
cSt @ 212ºF 13.00
FUEL % 1.8%
ANTIFREEZE % 0
TBN 4.3
2001 SUBARU OUTBACK H-6 EZ30 4EAT


from blackstone;
the wear levels in your outbacks sample line up nicely with universal averages for this type of Subaru 3.0l flat-six engine, and they're based on a similar 6k mile interval, so it's a good apples to apples comparison. There's a little extra fuel in the oil (shown by the low flashpoint), but 1.8% is below the cautionary limit, so it's nothing to worry about. It didnt thin viscosity out of spec. The 4.3 TBN shows plenty of active additive left in the used oil, so you could go longernext time if you want to (7k miles). But this interval obviously works too !

I got a pre code p0420 which has been coming up off and on for 18 months but never an official code, my ultagauge just sees it as a potential code. It official turned into a P0420 code with check engine about 3 months ago, just before I took this sample. I cleared the code and it since hasnt come back, but I am sure this excess fuel is tied into it so if any of the experts would like to chime in I wouls very much appreciate your thoughts

ps I copied and pasted as asked for posting UOA and the [censored] thing still took all the spaces out

 

[Colt45ws]

Put it in a code box
Originally Posted By: Dupree

Code:


OIL ROTELA T6 5W40

MILES IN USE 5,995

MILES 139,803

SAMPLE TAKEN 2/5/2016



ALUMINUM 3

CHROMIUM 1

IRON 10

COPPER 2

LEAD 2

TIN 0

MOLYBDENUM 69

NICKEL 0

MANGANESE 0

SILVER 0

TITANIUM 0

POTASSIUM 5

BORON 29

SILICON 4

SODIUM 16

CALCIUM 888

MAGNESIUM 1188

PHOSPHORUS 996

ZINC 1238

BARIUM 0



INSOLUBLES 0.2

WATER % 0

FLASHPOINT ºF 340

SUS VIS 210ºF 70.2

cSt @ 212ºF 13.00

FUEL % 1.8%

ANTIFREEZE % 0

TBN 4.3

2001 SUBARU OUTBACK H-6 EZ30 4EAT


from blackstone;
the wear levels in your outbacks sample line up nicely with universal averages for this type of Subaru 3.0l flat-six engine, and they're based on a similar 6k mile interval, so it's a good apples to apples comparison. There's a little extra fuel in the oil (shown by the low flashpoint), but 1.8% is below the cautionary limit, so it's nothing to worry about. It didnt thin viscosity out of spec. The 4.3 TBN shows plenty of active additive left in the used oil, so you could go longernext time if you want to (7k miles). But this interval obviously works too !

I got a pre code p0420 which has been coming up off and on for 18 months but never an official code, my ultagauge just sees it as a potential code. It official turned into a P0420 code with check engine about 3 months ago, just before I took this sample. I cleared the code and it since hasnt come back, but I am sure this excess fuel is tied into it so if any of the experts would like to chime in I wouls very much appreciate your thoughts

ps I copied and pasted as asked for posting UOA and the [censored] thing still took all the spaces out



This probably has a bit more than 1.8% fuel...probably around 3%
The P0420 is not really mean anything with the fueling. It means the catalytic converter is not functioning efficiently. It sounds like its right on the edge.

Some questions:
Time in service (6 months, a year)
How was this driven before it was sampled? Was it hot or was it cold, how long had it been driven, etc.
How is its normal day to day life? Do you warm up the engine on a regular basis? Are short trips common? Or do you do mainly highway?

 

[Dupree]

the oil was in for about 3-4 months
I drive highway 60mph most the time, little to no short trips, I dont let it sit and idle and dont warm it that way
the oil was drained after i brought it home from work (25 mile highway drive) it sat 30 minutes to cool before draining

and p0420 is much more then just cat efficiency it throws from fuel trim problems as well

 

[Colt45ws]

Originally Posted By: Dupree
the oil was in for about 3-4 months
I drive highway 60mph most the time, little to no short trips, I dont let it sit and idle and dont warm it that way
the oil was drained after i brought it home from work (25 mile highway drive) it sat 30 minutes to cool before draining

and p0420 is much more then just cat efficiency it throws from fuel trim problems as well

Mmm, not really. The PCM is looking at the switching frequency and amplitude of the front oxygen sensor and comparing it to the rear sensor. When the rear sensor output gets close to the front output, the catalyst is degraded.
There are separate codes for fuel trim problems.

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: Dupree
the oil was in for about 3-4 months
I drive highway 60mph most the time, little to no short trips, I dont let it sit and idle and dont warm it that way
the oil was drained after i brought it home from work (25 mile highway drive) it sat 30 minutes to cool before draining

and p0420 is much more then just cat efficiency it throws from fuel trim problems as well
How does it "throw" a code?

 

[Dupree]

its only thrown the code officially once on my ultragauge, I reset it and it hasnt come back,(2000 miles since the reset). If your familiar with the ultragauge, it constantly monitors your vehicle. It will throw what they call a precode when the engine parameters get close, so once it goes past a preset threshold (lower then an official code), it registers a pre code meaning there could be a problem forming.
I really wouldnt worry about the code with how seldom its even thrown a precode, however with the fuel coming back in my UOA I am questioning it again as id like to get to the bottom of the fuel dillution problem.

 

[wsar10]

It would seem to me that IF you have any clue of a catalyst code plus "above average" fuel in the oil, the only sensible thing to me would be to change that O2 sensor(s).... Some DTC's mean different things for different vehicles, that said could be a CAT starting to fail but I would bank on the O2 sensor.

O2 sensors are cheap and should be replaced as maintenance, if you are at 140K mi, on the OE sensors then a change is needed regardless. Depending on the vehicle I do mine every 75K or so (like I said give or take depending on the vehicle).

 

[sxg6]

P0420 means your cat is bad, or your rear oxygen sensor is bad. If your car consumes oil, I would stop using a high ZDDP oil like rotella since that will shorten the life of your cat.

 

[wsar10]

they say it shortens CAT life.... Funny thing is I have been running it for years and never had a CAT fail "prematurely".

Most of us who use Rotella and other diesel oils beg to differ regarding premature emissions equip failure...

 

[sxg6]

I recently posted these articles on another forum, and they touch on the topic of ZDDP and catalytic converters. I'm not really sure what else to say, there is a lot of information out there which shows that phosphorus is harmful to catalytic converters.

part 1
http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/d4e8e0b9#/d4e8e0b9/16

part 2
http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/20213322#/20213322/49

Not sure about older subaru catalytic converters, but newer subaru catalytic converters are very expensive. I just don't think it's worth the risk when there are countless pcmo's which will protect your engine just fine.

 

[Garak]

Yes, phosphorus is hard on cats. But, it's not like new oils have zilch and Rotella has race oil levels. What we never seem to get are any numbers as to how much faster Rotella would kill a cat over a GF-5 PCMO in the same application, or how much better some GF-5 PCMOs do than others. The OEMs care mostly from a warranty perspective.

 

[wsar10]

My current DD is the WJ in my sig (most of the time), Usually I change a Cat around 100k mi, that said.... With this specific JEEP I have been running Rotella T5/T6 since a bit shy of 40k mi, I am now at 156k mi... no sign of Cat issue yet ! I have purposely let this Cat in there to make this very point...

I've put several hundred thousand miles on vehicles using Rotella oils and NEVER an issue, some of those very hard miles and many offroad miles.... Does it "scientifically" wear on emissions equip, no doubt ! Is it practical to consider it as a deciding factor based on real world data, no.

I know what "they" say, I went thought the research many years ago and continue to read about it here and there. The residual effect (if any), just does not outweigh the benefits for me.

 

[sxg6]

I understand what you guys are saying. I have 190k on my 2009 Subaru Legacy, and it has always consumed between 1qt-2qt's of conventional pcmo during every 5k oci. Subaru voluntarily replaced the original cat as a recall at 135k. Even with my oil consumption, my cat was still good at 135k, and the replacement is still good here at 190k. I would imagine both cats have been exposed to a lot of phosphorus from the oil consumption, and still no issues with either one.

 

[wsar10]

thats the thing, The census was always that if your using oil high in ZDDP and you burn oil.... that it may cause elevated wear on emissions equip.

 

[Dupree]

Originally Posted By: wsar10
It would seem to me that IF you have any clue of a catalyst code plus "above average" fuel in the oil, the only sensible thing to me would be to change that O2 sensor(s).... Some DTC's mean different things for different vehicles, that said could be a CAT starting to fail but I would bank on the O2 sensor.

O2 sensors are cheap and should be replaced as maintenance, if you are at 140K mi, on the OE sensors then a change is needed regardless. Depending on the vehicle I do mine every 75K or so (like I said give or take depending on the vehicle).


that was exactly my thinking changed both front and the downstream sensors with OE Densos, in the last 12k miles

 

[Dupree]

contrary to what keeps getting repeated a p0420 doesnt not automatically designate a bad cat it can be many many other things, and if and when you do get a bad cat you need to figure out what has been out of spec so long that caused the cat to go bad and repair it then the cat. obvious the problem here is I am overfueling somewhere now to figure out how and why,time to dig into fuel trims and run a some datalogging see if I can pinpoint a culprit. and my jeep inline 6 went 250k with the original cat on rotella t6 so the high zddp blows up cats is largley misunderstood any oil burner poisions cats, a high zddp may do it quicker, that being said mine doesnt burn oil.