Sustina 0W-20, 6,003 kms, Caterham

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This is my track car and fast road use toy. There are more track days on this oil sample than I can remember.
Time on this oil is just over three years at 38 months.
The recommended oil grade is 5W-50 and I did use it years ago when I first got the car but the oil temp's, particularly on the street are too low to warrant such a heavy oil. So gradually I've used lighter and lighter oils finally settling on 0W-20s about six years ago. The car's driveability and overall performance is so much better with a 20 grade oil.

The previous UOA is also shown (a second sample was sent in because Toromont didn't do a TBN test on the first). The review of the first UAO is below:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3891389/1

The initial fill included 3 oz of RL Break-In Additive to raise the phosphorus level up to about 1,000 ppm and a pint (12%) of Sustina 0W-50 to raise the hot (80C, 176F) street use oil pressure to 5 bar (72-73 psi) at high rev's. This was the lightest oil I have ever run on start-up (lowest OP) due to it's ultra high 229 VI and was still lower than what I like once up to low normal street oil temp's; hence the reason to thicken it up some. I didn't have to do this with the previous lower 199 VI Honda (Idemitsu) 0W-20 but I did with the previous TGMO. This is more than the minimum recommended OP of 4.4 bar (63.8) psi but at the track oil temp's can rise as high as 105C (221F) so it's an approximation to compensate for the lower OP (lower operational viscosity) at the track.

As it turned out on a very hot track day at Watkins Glen in July/14, oil temp's actually approached 110C (230F) at the end of some afternoon track sessions and the OP did drop to 4.1-4.2 bar (60-61 psi) but knowing the very high VI was part of the reason and that I had already raised the HTHSV of the oil somewhat I didn't thicken the oil up any further. As it turns out I haven't seen oil temp's that high since. In fact on some track days in the early spring or late fall I may not see oil temp's above 85C (185F).

About a litre of oil in total was added incrementally as top up to keep the oil level just over the full mark on the dipstick with close to 4 litres of oil in the sump at all times. Any less and the oil pick-up tube can suck air under hard braking.
The last top up was at the 4,927 kms mark and instead of fresh oil I added 400 mls of used Idemitsu from the previous fill in anticipation of changing the oil out soon.

I'm pleased with the UOA results with the exception of the 28 ppm of silicon which undoubtedly is grit getting through the K & N air filters. I'm sure the 16 ppm of Fe would have been lower with better air filters. The highish Si level was noted in the previous UOA so I cleaned, re-oil and better sealed the filters in the hope that might help but obviously it's the filter elements themselves that just don't do a particularly good filtering job. Their main claim to fame seems to be low induction restriction to maximize power at the expense of filtering.

With a remaining TBN of 5.5 and Tan of 1.10 there appears to be plenty of life left in this oil. I'm sure 5 years and 10,000 kms might be a reasonable OCI. Time really isn't a factor unless you're operating in sub-freezing temp's without bring the oil up to temperature which isn't he case here. And track use with tons WOT conditions and maximum 7,000 rpm rev's don't seem to shorten the oil life much plus my maximum oil temp's are in the ideal range.

My current fill is Fuchs Titan GT1 XTL 0W-20 that I've had in my oil stash for a while now and want to use up.
It's an expensive race tested, ester based, Zinc free oil that's not available in the States. It is quite a bit heavier than the Sustina with a more typical 172 VI and an estimated HTHSV in the 2.75-2.8cP area I suspect based the higher oil pressure.
In fact compared to the thickened up Sustina, the cold idle was a bit too low to prevent stalling so I've had to turn up the idle speed a bit to compensate for the higher oil drag.
Consequently once the oil is up to temperature the rev's are a bit high. Hopefully with the warmer weather I might be able turn down the idle a bit, we'll see.
So maybe five years on this oil...?
 
I wish my S2000 and E430 have oil temp gauge so I can customize oil grade for it.

I used PP 5W20 in my E430 some years ago around 2007-2008, after that I used various name brand xW20 and xW30 (all synthetic only) and even mixed xW20 with xW40. I think M1 0W40 is too thick for how my wife drives it, mostly 65-76 MPH on highway and most trips were less than 20 miles.

5 years is possible, but 3 years is plentiful for this oil if mileage and usage are the same.
 
Excellent write up Caterham. I have one question, as I may have misunderstood something...

28ppm Si after a 38 month interval/UOA?
 
Thank you for this informative post. I installed OT and OP gauges on the '93 240, as you suggest in your posts. It's been an eye opener. The B230F engine in the 240 easily maintains spec OP with a 2.8-2.9 HTHSV which I believe is lower than the API SG oil spec'd when it was built. And it revs noticeably faster and more easily. uoa show minimal wear with the lighter weights too.
 
Originally Posted By: wemay
Excellent write up Caterham. I have one question, as I may have misunderstood something...

28ppm Si after a 38 month interval/UOA?

Not quite sure I understand you question other than to say time is not really a factor, it's actual useage that matters, or rather how much air was drawn through the air filters (and sand, Si) over 6003 kms (3730 miles).
The amount of fuel burned is probably a better indicator of useage than mileage and on a single
track day that could be 30 gallons and no better
than maybe 8 mpg with all the WOT driving and that would be sucking a heck of a lot more air than simply cruising at 70-80 mph on the highway.
I've never kept track of my fuel consumption but
that might be a better indicator of usage than just mileage.
 
Originally Posted By: Sam_Julier
Thank you for this informative post. I installed OT and OP gauges on the '93 240, as you suggest in your posts. It's been an eye opener. The B230F engine in the 240 easily maintains spec OP with a 2.8-2.9 HTHSV which I believe is lower than the API SG oil spec'd when it was built. And it revs noticeably faster and more easily. uoa show minimal wear with the lighter weights too.

Of course having oil gauges allows one to do away with having an excessively high viscosity reserve with no risk once you become comfortable relying upon them.
But the manufacturers need to specify an oil grade will a large viscosity reserve to deal with all the potential unknowns such as fuel dilution, oil shear and unexpectedly high oil temp's that could happen when one is driving blind so to speak.
The last factor, unexpectedly high or abnormally high oil temp's manufacturer's do have more of a handle on now than they once did through the use of electronic safety management controls which has enabled lighter oil grades to be specified.
So given the option, that's why it's best
to run the lightest oil a manufacturer specifies
and if that is heavier than a 0W-20, and you have oil gauges, you will know if can run something lighter with the way you operate your car.
 
Another car that sits, has a little rust in the cylinder liners, has a little spike of iron and the owner think of the K&N air filter not filtering in a race track of tarmac. The silifon could be antifoam, since in race oils there is more demand for antifoaming agents.

Just to say OTOH.
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: wemay
Excellent write up Caterham. I have one question, as I may have misunderstood something...

28ppm Si after a 38 month interval/UOA?

Not quite sure I understand you question other than to say time is not really a factor, it's actual useage that matters, or rather how much air was drawn through the air filters (and sand, Si) over 6003 kms (3730 miles).
The amount of fuel burned is probably a better indicator of useage than mileage and on a single
track day that could be 30 gallons and no better
than maybe 8 mpg with all the WOT driving and that would be sucking a heck of a lot more air than simply cruising at 70-80 mph on the highway.
I've never kept track of my fuel consumption but
that might be a better indicator of usage than just mileage.


Ok, got it. 3730 miles.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
So given the option, that's why it's best to run the lightest oil a manufacturer specifiesand if that is heavier than a 0W-20, and you have oil gauges, you will know if can run something lighter with the way you operate your car.

Without oil gauges but knowing that German car manufactures spec their oil based on driving conditions in Europe, especially on German Autobahn, which can be north of 130-150 MPH for hours, which would raise oil temperature above 240-250F.

Same vehicle operated in North America barely go to 80-90 MPH for some distance and back down to 70-75 MPH, this speed would result in much lower oil temperature to around 190-210F.

At a much lower temp 1 or 2 grade thinner is possible and probably better.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

As it turned out on a very hot track day at Watkins Glen in July/14, oil temp's actually approached 110C (230F) at the end of some afternoon track sessions



Is this considered hot? My caddy gets close to that in July beach traffic, or after a good blast down the highway.
 
I suppose it depends on the vehicle. My Audi would have never gotten that hot, not matter how hard I flogged it. The G37 and its brethren will all the time, with very little effort at all.
 
Originally Posted By: Gasbuggy
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

As it turned out on a very hot track day at Watkins Glen in July/14, oil temp's actually approached 110C (230F) at the end of some afternoon track sessions



Is this considered hot? My caddy gets close to that in July beach traffic, or after a good blast down the highway.


depends where you are measuring.

If I put a type K thermocouple down the dipstick in my Caprice, the oil temp there is 100C after 10-15 mins on the highway (100km/h, 1,700 RPM)...same speed but at 4,000RPM, by holding the trans in "2" will have the same spot at 135C...the sump temperature using an IR gun will be 10-15C lower.

Big end oil temps will be around 20-30C hotter than bulk oil temps.

CATERHAM, considering the usage, that's not a bad UOA...what do you calculate the KV100 of the brew should have been before use versus what it was at end of test Do you know where the Manganese resides in your engine ?

I know and agree that your Oil Pressure tests correlate to an HTHS value, what did you calculate the HTHS at start and finish of the test period ?

Re your query regarding fuel consumption versus miles when calculating the "effective" use of the oil, I agree a lot with your sentiment...makes WAY more sense than just 100 miles of track use.
 
Regarding your air filtration I think the right question is "is it good enough?"
And to me it sure is. Silicon is not that high as an absolute number neither is your iron content. You could run this engine for 50 years like this based on your usage, so why bother?
Sure a paper filter could be 10 times better, but how much of a difference does it make in the end? You are not driving in an construction site or the desert.
Given your low oil temps it is no surprise to me that the oil holds up so well.
It seems that high oil temps is the main reason oils break down so easily with track usage.
 
Prophetic....In 2012, Trav points out that Caterham's post of a recent UOA on this vehicle running Sustina 0w50 has an ulterior motive

Originally Posted By: Trav
He undoubtedly will be using this so called "Proof" that 20w works in 50w spec engines used on the track in the near future.
Just my opinion.


--#2828766 - 12/08/12 10:48 PM
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Phishin
Prophetic....In 2012, Trav points out that Caterham's post of a recent UOA on this vehicle running Sustina 0w50 has an ulterior motive

Originally Posted By: Trav
He undoubtedly will be using this so called "Proof" that 20w works in 50w spec engines used on the track in the near future.
Just my opinion.


--#2828766 - 12/08/12 10:48 PM


...and CATERHAM was right.
 
Originally Posted By: Gasbuggy
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

As it turned out on a very hot track day at Watkins Glen in July/14, oil temp's actually approached 110C (230F) at the end of some afternoon track sessions



Is this considered hot? My caddy gets close to that in July beach traffic, or after a good blast down the highway.


It is, as Garak noted, very car dependant. My SRT-8 is at 107C oil temps just driving around too, and that was with ambient at a whopping 7C, LOL!
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
If I put a type K thermocouple down the dipstick in my Caprice, the oil temp there is 100C after 10-15 mins on the highway (100km/h, 1,700 RPM)...same speed but at 4,000RPM, by holding the trans in "2" will have the same spot at 135C...the sump temperature using an IR gun will be 10-15C lower.

That why German vehicles are spec'ed with heavier oil than necessary for US drivers.

Some drivers On Autobahn could do 5-6k RPM(or higher) all day, while we only get to 2000-3000 RPM most of the time in US.
 
Originally Posted By: nickolas84
Regarding your air filtration I think the right question is "is it good enough?"
And to me it sure is. Silicon is not that high as an absolute number neither is your iron content. You could run this engine for 50 years like this based on your usage, so why bother?
Sure a paper filter could be 10 times better, but how much of a difference does it make in the end? You are not driving in an construction site or the desert.

You make an excellent argument for leaving well enough alone.
Caterham is no longer using the US made K&N air filter but instead a large single element foam filter made by Pipercross in the UK. I might look into sourcing one to try, if only for curiousity's sake to see if it makes
a measurable difference.....or not.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
No, no, a Caterham is an ideal car for year round use in Canada, right CATERHAM?
wink.gif


I've driven the car every month of the year, but not in the same year.
This has been a pretty mild winter and I was driving it up until Dec 28th when winter finally arrived. But it didn't stay for long as I was out bombing around the first week of Feb when the temp's hit 60F.
The determining factor on whether I take it out for a spin is not the temp's, I've driven it lots of times with sub-freezing temperatures. No it's the road salt that I have a complete adversion to. Even if it's sunny, mild with dry roads, if we haven't had a good rain to clean the salt off the roads the car will remain tucked away in the garage.
 
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