How to handle dangerously bad work by a shop

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: gathermewool
That fact that you keep stating that your wife and unborn child could have died is what people are taking issue with, not your right to be frustrated at the situation, which we all fully understand.


Yes, that's pretty much how I see this situation. I too would be upset about such a short lived fix, but all this talk about a deadly situation and a possibility of being killed and adding unborn babies to the mix just doesn't sit right with me. Plus starting a thread and actively participating in it and not first contacting the shop (to this day we don't know if OP contacted the shop) also seems strange.

 

[supton]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but had the nut worked off, wouldn't the caliper reasonably keep the hub on the car? At least for a few yards.

If it was me, I'd just eat the cost. I would kick myself for asking the dealer to look at something I should have taken to the first shop in the first place. Caught between a rock and a hard place, once at the dealer there was only one option and it cost $$$$.

 

[ted s]

then the nut didnt back off


Originally Posted By: Mykl
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
You wrote yourself that it was discovered by accident when checking a punctured tire. You did not feel anything at all unusual? I mean if it caused that much damage to the mating components, you would surely feel it while driving. And how do you know the nut backed off? Was it marked?


I did not feel it while driving. The steering wheel and ride were still smooth. The amount of play on the wheel wasn't ridiculous, just enough movement to let me know something was wrong. Had it progressed I can only assume that it would have been more obvious while driving the car. That said, this is my wife's car, and while she knows enough to know when to pull over and call me, I'm not her so I can't say that she wouldn't have continued to drive it and just tell me about it later.

We know the nut had backed off because the threads on the axle were damaged to the point that the nut couldn't have been retightened sufficiently to remove the play, which is why the axle had to be replaced.

 

[Gasbuggy]

Originally Posted By: ted s
then the nut didnt back off



Yea, something is off about this whole event.

 

[Vikas]

close to 2year and 22K miles since the repair was done; when do you think the nut started backing off?

 

[Doog]

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp

You've also removed the ability for that shop to resolve the situation in-house. The only option you're presenting them is to pay another shop for repairing something that you never showed them.


+1 that's where the wheels fall off your whole claim...(no pun intended)....well Ok fine...pun intended...

 

[Mykl]

Originally Posted By: Gasbuggy
I guess I made the mistake of assuming you knew something about cars/mechanics and had a better understanding of the problem before going to the dealership.


Your assumption that I knew what the problem was before I went to the dealership was a mistake, as stated, multiple times, my initial diagnosis was incorrect.

Your assumption that I know something about cars was correct, I do know about as much as the average car enthusiast. I certainly know how the bearing/hub assembly is put together, and I know how to properly assemble one myself.

Originally Posted By: ted s
then the nut didnt back off


The stripped threads on the inside end of the axle's spindle, that the axle nut had backed off of, are evidence that the nut did in fact back off.

That there was not yet a significant vibration while the vehicle was in motion was evidence that I had found the issue before it became dangerous.

 

[Mykl]

Update:

I went back to the dealership and they still had the parts available to look at. The axle nut had the punch in it, where it was supposed to be. Yet it had still somehow managed to back off.

The dealership tech's theory is that the bearing had failed and caused the nut to back off. I've never heard of this happening before, but I don't look at broken cars for a living. Other than that, he couldn't offer a clear explanation, aside from maybe the axle nut was improperly torqued.

So that's that.

My best guess is that the nut was likely over-torqued or under-torqued, leading to premature bearing failure, but there's no way I could prove that.

So this gets dumped into the "[censored] happens" bin.

 

[Mykl]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Originally Posted By: gathermewool
That fact that you keep stating that your wife and unborn child could have died is what people are taking issue with, not your right to be frustrated at the situation, which we all fully understand.


Yes, that's pretty much how I see this situation. I too would be upset about such a short lived fix, but all this talk about a deadly situation and a possibility of being killed and adding unborn babies to the mix just doesn't sit right with me. Plus starting a thread and actively participating in it and not first contacting the shop (to this day we don't know if OP contacted the shop) also seems strange.


Why is it strange that I hadn't contacted the shop? I didn't contact the shop because I wasn't 100% sure they were responsible. Assuming you were in the situation I came to the forum in, would you have approached the shop before asking the tech who worked on the car what their exact opinion was?

If you've got the idea in your head that an independent mechanic had botched a repair on your vehicle, rendering it unsafe, doesn't upset you........ what does? What mistakes could a shop make that you wouldn't tolerate?

 

[KrisZ]

So, did you manage to contact the offending shop yet or not?

 

[Mykl]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
So, did you manage to contact the offending shop yet or not?


I haven't contacted the shop. I've considered presenting them the receipts stating, plainly, that the part they installed had failed and caused other issues that rendered the car unsafe to move from that spot and see if they offer anything.

If they do, great, if they don't, whatever.

I saw some grumblings earlier about my decision to go to the dealership and why I went there for a dashboard repair.... Toyota extended the warranty, so it's a free, new dashboard.

 

[Gasbuggy]

Originally Posted By: Mykl
Originally Posted By: Gasbuggy
I guess I made the mistake of assuming you knew something about cars/mechanics and had a better understanding of the problem before going to the dealership.


Your assumption that I knew what the problem was before I went to the dealership was a mistake, as stated, multiple times, my initial diagnosis was incorrect.

Your assumption that I know something about cars was correct, I do know about as much as the average car enthusiast. I certainly know how the bearing/hub assembly is put together, and I know how to properly assemble one myself.

Originally Posted By: ted s
then the nut didnt back off


The stripped threads on the inside end of the axle's spindle, that the axle nut had backed off of, are evidence that the nut did in fact back off.

That there was not yet a significant vibration while the vehicle was in motion was evidence that I had found the issue before it became dangerous.




You knew the wheel was loose. A car enthusiast has a wheel moving around he can make some quick deductions about why it is doing so. You did that, like we all would.

That's what I don't get, you're aware of a problem and you choose not to investigate yourself and decide you're comfortable driving to the dealership. The car obviously was not showing any symptoms while driving, which suggests to me the wheel was not ready to fly off at any moment and kill you. You were probably thinking the same thing which is why you drove it. The dealership tells you it is too dangerous and you take it as fact. That is why I think something is off. I'm not accusing you of lying.

 

[Mykl]

Originally Posted By: Gasbuggy
You knew the wheel was loose. A car enthusiast has a wheel moving around he can make some quick deductions about why it is doing so. You did that, like we all would.

That's what I don't get, you're aware of a problem and you choose not to investigate yourself and decide you're comfortable driving to the dealership. The car obviously was not showing any symptoms while driving, which suggests to me the wheel was not ready to fly off at any moment and kill you. You were probably thinking the same thing which is why you drove it. The dealership tells you it is too dangerous and you take it as fact. That is why I think something is off. I'm not accusing you of lying.


I'm not sure what you expect me to say about this. Five pages ago I stated I should have asked to have a look when I was first told of the issue. Either way, they showed me the parts when I went back last Friday, and it was as they said it was.

As I've also said, I've taken these parts off of enough cars to know that if that nut falls off you're now asking the brake caliper bolts to endure stresses they were never meant to handle. Would they have held? Maybe? Probably? Would they have held for long enough for the driver to feel the huge problem and bring the car safely to a stop? Maybe?

I still don't believe that how the car felt while driving was any indication regarding how safe the vehicle was. Not all mechanical failures happen slowly enough to give you time to react, occasionally they're catastrophic, leaving little warning beforehand.

But let's just say you're right, even then there was a very real possibility that this car was going to leave me stranded somewhere on the side of a freeway, possibly with a woman in labor on board. Even if she wasn't in labor do you have any idea just how often a pregnant lady needs to go to the bathroom? I mean, it's pretty insane, like every 30 minutes because the kid won't stop kicking her bladder.

 

[KrisZ]

The outer race of the wheel bearing is pressed into the knuckle and the inner race into the axle hub. There is usually also a snap ring that goes on the outer race. If you think that the axle nut is the thing that holds all of it together then perhaps you should disassemble few more of these babies. Perhaps you should also try and remove the axle and then come back and tell me if it would hold the wheel in place. It can be removed by hand once it's disconnected from the axle hub by the way.
The nut is there, and it is torqued to set the proper load on the wheel bearing, not to hold it in place. It's actually quite amazing how this relatively small wheel bearing can take all the abuse with nothing but a press fit. But then again, most will take a 20 ton press to get them out.

The fact that you still did not contact the shop tells me that you were simply looking for internet drama and perhaps a bunch supporters to validate your plan on giving this shop a full negative review.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: Mykl
Update:

I went back to the dealership and they still had the parts available to look at. The axle nut had the punch in it, where it was supposed to be. Yet it had still somehow managed to back off.

The dealership tech's theory is that the bearing had failed and caused the nut to back off. I've never heard of this happening before, but I don't look at broken cars for a living. Other than that, he couldn't offer a clear explanation, aside from maybe the axle nut was improperly torqued.

So that's that.

My best guess is that the nut was likely over-torqued or under-torqued, leading to premature bearing failure, but there's no way I could prove that.

So this gets dumped into the "[censored] happens" bin.


Yup, the nut did not back off just as some of as suspected. Looks like the dealer scored an easy upsell for the knuckle and the hub where, from the looks of it, only the axle needed to be changed and maybe the bearing.
And the wheel was never in any danger of coming off. Even the axle would not come off since the axle nut was there. The dealership representative simply lied to ensure a nice and profitable day.

 

[Vikas]

This is the most logical and simple explanation but since it does not align with the OP's stated intents, he is not buying it.

 

[Mykl]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
The fact that you still did not contact the shop tells me that you were simply looking for internet drama and perhaps a bunch supporters to validate your plan on giving this shop a full negative review.


I sought advice, I got advice, and you're still saying this... why?

Anyway, thank you for your input, now kindly [censored] off. I have a personal preference for polite discussion among respectful adults, and you don't seem to fit that description.

 

[Mykl]

Originally Posted By: Vikas
This is the most logical and simple explanation but since it does not align with the OP's stated intents, he is not buying it.


What is my intent?

 

[ls1mike]

Look everything aside in this thread, your wheel was not going to come flying off It would have gotten loud and loose before anything catastrophic happened. Your caliper would have held the wheel on. My Grand Prix's bearing was bad for a year, got the ABS/Stabilitrak light for eight months before I got around to doing anything with it. It was basically dust in there and still doing it's job. It was damaged when it hit a curb. 13 second 1/4 mile passes, 20,000 miles and I am here to add to this thread.

 

[Mykl]

Originally Posted By: ls1mike
Look everything aside in this thread, your wheel was not going to come flying off It would have gotten loud and loose before anything catastrophic happened. Your caliper would have held the wheel on. My Grand Prix's bearing was bad for a year, got the ABS/Stabilitrak light for eight months before I got around to doing anything with it. It was basically dust in there and still doing it's job. It was damaged when it hit a curb. 13 second 1/4 mile passes, 20,000 miles and I am here to add to this thread.

I accept this because it no longer matters if I do or don't. The situation is more or less resolved.

My concern wasn't that the car wasn't safe to drive with a bad wheel bearing, my concern was that the potential lack of an axle nut creates the possibility that the wheel hub could start to back out of the wheel bearing that it's pressed into. Would it have backed out? I don't know. How much play in a damaged wheel bearing would be necessary for this to happen? Again, I don't know.

What I do know is that I'm looking at a repair guide that says that, if you do not have access to a hydraulic press, you may use a slide hammer to separate the hub from the bearing... after removing the axle nut. Of course, this still leaves the brake caliper bolts in the way of the hub and brake disk, but I mentioned this earlier as well.

If all it takes is a slide hammer to pull the wheel hub from the bearing, was I right to be concerned about the possibility that a shop did not properly install the axle nut? I think so, others don't seem to. In the end it doesn't matter because there was no obvious evidence suggesting that the axle nut was not installed properly.