Audi abandoning Torsen AWD

[Quattro Pete]

Based on the description, the new system for longitudinal engine applications is more haldex-like, essentially making a vehicle FWD in normal operation. I suppose this was bound to happen given the increased pressures on improving fuel economy...

Quote:
The new quattro system uses an electro-mechanically operated multi-plate clutch and rear gear set that combine to eliminate mechanical drag by completely cutting drive to the rear differential, and with it the rear wheels, when the driver only requires front-wheel drive.

To be marketed under the name quattro ultra, the new system abandons the widely used Torsen torque sensing system, as well as the central differential and rear differential hardware used by Audi in one form or the other since the inception of its original quattro four-wheel drive system back in 1980.


http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-audi-quattro-ultra-four-wheel-drive-system-detailed

 

[SteveSRT8]

Great. So for a mpg or so they abandon what their rep was based on.

This system is probably cheaper, too...

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Great. So for a mpg or so they abandon what their rep was based on.

I would imagine an average buyer will not care. They just want to know that it's AWD and aren't interested in how it works underneath. I hear A3 and Q3 are selling well despite not being Torsen either.

VAG corporate certainly cares about CAFE though.

 

[buster]

I guess Subaru will now have the best AWD.

 

[Noey]

Anybody who trusts any VW group product should get a lobotomy.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Noey
Anybody who trusts any VW group product should get a lobotomy.

Are there any angels in the auto industry? Which one can you really trust?

I dont really trust any of them, so I drive what i like. Now, lets keep this on topic please.

 

[GMBoy]

I'm with you on the 4WD issue. I always prefer a system that always splits torque front and rear and then sends more or less each direction as needed. I hated when GM did the same thing several times. I had a 1997 Olds Bravada smarttrak. It worked great 50/50 split under normal conditions then torque went where traction was. Then the following year they went to the on demand style where they were RWD until slip was detected and power was "instantly" transfered up front. In some cases this can be too late. This same move was also made on the Astro/Safari vans. I currently have a 2006 Sierra Denali AWD with a 60/40 split normal mode. The newer trucks are on demand style when in "AUTO" mode. You can lock them in 4WD mode but then you lose the AWD advantage because you can't do that on dry pavement.

Sorry to hear this coming from AUDI has I had a 1982 Quatrro in high school that was a BEAST in foul weather and I enjoyed that car.

 

[wemay]

I'm sure it won't make a difference to the average owner. Audi is now the equal of Mercedes and BMW and has also made long strides in terms of reliability. I'm sure this new "Ultra AWD" won't disappoint either in performance or sturdiness.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: wemay
I'm sure this new "Ultra AWD" won't disappoint either in performance or sturdiness.

If it's anything like Haldex, then I've read reports of drivers complaining that when the power is transferred to the rear, it can sometimes unsettle the vehicle.

But again, I'm thinking a typical owner will probably not notice this. The rest can get a Subaru instead.

 

[wemay]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: wemay
I'm sure this new "Ultra AWD" won't disappoint either in performance or sturdiness.

If it's anything like Haldex, then I've read reports of drivers complaining that when the power is transferred to the rear, it can sometimes unsettle the vehicle.

But again, I'm thinking a typical owner will probably not notice this. The rest can get a Subaru instead.

That's interesting ("unsettling the vehicle"). I thought the VW R32 used Haldex. I'm sure it wasn't exactly the same but those guys seemed to love the system (when all is well with the electronics). And these owners drive hard.

 

[ChristianReske]

More Electronic.
Oh yeah.
Less reliability, more breakdowns, more and higher repair costs for the owner.

 

[DrRoughneck]

This system sounds a lot like the Toyota Tacoma electronic limited slip differential but more complicated. Instead of clutch plates, Toyota's electronic control applies brakes to the spinning wheel to get more torque to the wheel with traction. The brakes are already there, why add clutch plates?

Less parts, simpler, more reliable.

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: ChristianReske
More Electronic.
Oh yeah.
Less reliability, more breakdowns, more and higher repair costs for the owner.




+1

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: wemay
I'm sure it won't make a difference to the average owner. Audi is now the equal of Mercedes and BMW and has also made long strides in terms of reliability. I'm sure this new "Ultra AWD" won't disappoint either in performance or sturdiness.
"Equal" In whose opinion?

 

[CT8]

Originally Posted By: Noey
Anybody who trusts any VW group product should get a lobotomy.
IT is the same with anything.

 

[Andrew1972]

The formerly cruddy AWD setups that are FWD+ have vastly improved as of late due to electronics and experience.

I think the test will be odd conditions like mud season or deep snow where the FWD+ gets quite confused...

Our MDX has FWD+ (SH-AWD) and she got it stuck due traction control in 14" of snow in driveway. She forgot how to disable the stability control so it was burning brakes and cutting power. Sure took her pure mechanical bliss Subaru AWD Legacy/rear LSD/P7 pirelli all-seasons which was able to back out uphill drama free.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Sorry but IME the electronics of modern vehicles have become quite reliable. Diagnostics are a breeze and few repairs are needed.

Don't confuse all the griping you hear on the Internet. The facts are that modern cars and trucks are generally far more reliable and last longer than ever before. We just hear about the lemons, few of the millions of satisfied folks who just drive to work every day comment on the net. Of course there are outliers (we all know someone...), and the Internet has given them a voice against the mfgrs. Settlements and buy-backs abound these days.

Finally please note that locking a brake via the ABS to simulate an LSD has been around for a long time. Very poor substitute for a "real" mechanical LSD...

 

[Kiwi_ME]

The new Audi system has some similarities with the current Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk, both able to fully disconnect the driveshaft to the rear axle in the interest of fuel economy. But the Jeep has the clutch and disconnect switched around plus is able to 'lock' the rear diff.

Center differentials seem to be disappearing in the very few lighter vehicles that used them and of course automatic-equipped Subarus have been using the electronically-controlled multiplate wet clutch in the same location as the Audi for some years now, but without the rear disconnect.
Suzuki had a full-time center diff system in the '06+ Grand Vitara but that's headed for extinction as well. The new Vitara has a 'conventional' AWD wet clutch at the back pinion like most other small SUVs.

Audi
https://www.audi-mediacenter.com/en/quat...ive-system-5503
https://audimediacenter-a.akamaihd.net/s...tion=attachment

Time will tell if these electronic wet clutch systems have acceptable service lifetimes.

 

[GiveMeAVowel]

Originally Posted By: ChristianReske
More Electronic.
Oh yeah.
Less reliability, more breakdowns, more and higher repair costs for the owner.






Nailed it.

The current Quattro system that has been used for decades now is THE best system on any 4WD car today, it is time tested, reliable, and durable, this new "ultra" you can bet will be a headache.

Do "average" owners care about the change maybe not, but many Audi owners are NOT the average owner and they will care.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: Kiwi_ME
The new Audi system has some similarities with the current Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk, both able to fully disconnect the driveshaft to the rear axle in the interest of fuel economy. But the Jeep has the clutch and disconnect switched around plus is able to 'lock' the rear diff.

Center differentials seem to be disappearing in the very few lighter vehicles that used them and of course automatic-equipped Subarus have been using the electronically-controlled multiplate wet clutch in the same location as the Audi for some years now, but without the rear disconnect.
Suzuki had a full-time center diff system in the '06+ Grand Vitara but that's headed for extinction as well. The new Vitara has a 'conventional' AWD wet clutch at the back pinion like most other small SUVs.

Audi
https://www.audi-mediacenter.com/en/quat...ive-system-5503
https://audimediacenter-a.akamaihd.net/s...tion=attachment

Time will tell if these electronic wet clutch systems have acceptable service lifetimes.

I think for "normal" use, they are all fine. Our CRV still kicks in the rear wheels quickly when called for. If I lived in the mountains though, where you might have to bog up a snowy pass for 20+ minutes with the system cycling on and off, I'd rather just get a simple 4wd system, or atleast have a manual lock up mode on a FWD/AWD.
My wife drove our 03 Tracker/Vitara for 10's of thousands of km in 4WD mode, often just on wet pavement with no issues either, the driveline still outlasted the body.