Why the hate on Ab Initio training for ATP?

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Noticed Jet Blue announced late last year that they're launching an Ab Initio program. Why are these sort of programs so hated in pilot circles? Aren't they necessary to fill the upcoming pilot shortage?
 
Who hates them?

I'm not aware of the haters...

After all, I learned ab initio..courtesy of the United States Navy...
 
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From the people I have spoken with, the resentment comes from the fact that someone with no experience will be hired and trained by the airline, when more qualified pilots who have been trying to get hired are ignored. I'm not saying it well but that is the basic idea.

It is a good strategy for the airline, as it will fill jobs with relative certainty. And in JB's case will keep pilots on the property rather than having them leave for another major carrier's higher pay - as I am sure there will be a commitment involved to repay the costs.
 
How can they ever get a new graduate of their program into the righthand seat when the minimum hours for First Officer in the US are now 1500 (or is it 1200)? I could see Ab Initio's working better back when it was only 250 hrs (?...) to qualify as a co-pilot.
 
Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
How can they ever get a new graduate of their program into the righthand seat when the minimum hours for First Officer in the US are now 1500 (or is it 1200)? I could see Ab Initio's working better back when it was only 250 hrs (?...) to qualify as a co-pilot.


There's an ATP with a reduced hours requirement when certain training parameters are met. I'm not familiar with the details but have spoken with some guys that have been loosely involved with it.

Also I'd think a major airline could purchase or lease their own fleet of small aircraft to vastly reduce training costs.
 
This is not just ab-initio, like U.S. airlines did briefly in the '60s when they didn't have enough applicants. That would not require any approval from anyone, they would just train people through all the existing requirements. JetBlue is asking for approval to take people rapidly through the process with no actual flight time, all simulator training. In Europe they have a similar program for MPL pilots, they are only certified to monitor the aircraft inflight. They are much cheaper to train and keep qualified, although still not cheap, and they are trained only for one airline, so they can't move to another, better paying airline. In theory, that should keep their wages from rising above whatever their airline chooses to pay them.

The difference is, JetBlue wants them to be licensed as actual pilots, not just cruise pilots, wants them to get their ATP after 1,000-hours of "flight time", monitoring an airplane next to a real pilot.

For now, JetBlue is setting up schools and smaller airlines to train up pilots in a pipeline to JetBlue, but the students have to pay all their expenses, which can be $200,000+ at a lot of the big flight schools. The airline industry is still trying to avoid spending a dime on keeping themselves supplied with pilots, and trying to keep new pilots as cheap as possible.
 
Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
Noticed Jet Blue announced late last year that they're launching an Ab Initio program. Why are these sort of programs so hated in pilot circles? Aren't they necessary to fill the upcoming pilot shortage?


It's not that they're hated, rather it's that a lot of guys who paid their dues as CFIs and later flying small iron freighters who then moved on to the right seat at a regional feel like they're being overlooked for right seat positions with mainline carriers.
There are plenty of qualified pilots looking to upgrade to a real job that pays real wages.
Why should some guy get hired off the street instead?
 
Originally Posted By: CT8
I like the Military pilots getting the commercial pilot jobs.


Yes, but when they quit the military they are no longer Military pilots. What you are saying is there should be a prerequisite for airline pilots to have been military pilots. Any particular kind of military pilots? How much time in military first? Seems the free market deals with all those questions of availability, experience, etc. while keeping the military full of good pilots.
 
Originally Posted By: willyreid

Yes, but when they quit the military they are no longer Military pilots.


???

So, Peyton Manning is no longer a football player?

I think his point was pilots who have flown in the military. May not do it any more (my last carrier landing was nearly 19 years ago) but I've done it...and that military experience shaped me as a pilot..
 
Astro,

Just wondering, how many flight hours do you have per aircraft you were rated in ?
Interested in knowing from military flight school.... till now in the 747.


Obviously the big airlines can pick the cream of the crop military pilots over kids going to ER in Daytona Beach.
 
Well...the big airlines no longer have that luxury...as they need to replace so many pilots over the next two decades...they will have to take whoever applies, and very soon, ab initio will become a reality.

It rankles a bit: I spent 11 years in the USN to get a job at a major, and now some kid out of college will get the same opportunity with zero experience. I'll retire as a B757 Captain at UAL (I actually hold that now) and this kid will be flying that position when he's in his 30s...

It's luck, though. He will be an international captain at the 15 year point in his career, when I was still a narrow-body FO because of all the movement in front of him. The demographics dictate this. So, it's not resentment...it's not his doing...

For me, I've spent a lot of time in the training center, so I've not racked up the flight time that many commercial pilots have. 6 years out of the 19 that I've been with UAL. Further, my 5 year recall to active duty was to a desk job, so no flight time there and my reserve commitment has taken me away from flying every year that I was "flying the line".

I've been flying for a little over 29 years now.

I've got roughly the following:
F-14 - 1800
Various other military - 500
B747-400 - 1500
A320 - 3000
B757/767 - 2000
 
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Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Because the guy off the street is willing to work for peanuts.

$200,000 for flight school to become an airline pilot ?


I went this route. I don't advise it if you don't want to work for it. I did more than just fly CRJ's to get my time to get in a bigger jet. Regionals almost bankrupted me. Thank God those days are behind me.
 
I suspect that ab initio programs will be a lot like the military in that entrants will be expected to learn a lot in a very short period of time and will be subject to frequent evaluation with those not cutting it being ruthlessly washed out.
There will also have to be a period of what amounts to indentured servitude, with buying out of that status being prohibitively expensive, unless another airline desperate for pilots wants to pay it out for some of these guys.
It's often said that the quality of training received early on in a pilot's career will bear fruit throughout his working life.
If nothing else, ab initio programs will enable airlines, like the military, to drill appropriate operating standards into the heads of new pilots.
 
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Is there a pilot shortage... this topic pops up every year on the news ?
My nephew in high school wants to attend flight school in Florida to get his certs.




No, there is PAY shortage. This is not an attractive profession any more. I just started out with a regional. Lets just say I will make less than a McDonalds general manager this first and second year and probably even until I upgrade if that ever happens.

The glitz and glam of being a professional pilot is long gone. We're just a number on the payroll. No one holds a pilot in high regard. No one cares. A pilot is just a required piece of equipment. I suppose the same could be said about doctors and engineers.

We live in a time where people's biggest concerns are facebook, the next iPhone and who Kim Kardashian is dating. Okay, that's a slight exaggeration.
 
Originally Posted By: maximus
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
Is there a pilot shortage... this topic pops up every year on the news ?
My nephew in high school wants to attend flight school in Florida to get his certs.




No, there is PAY shortage. This is not an attractive profession any more........

We live in a time where people's biggest concerns are facebook, the next iPhone and who Kim Kardashian is dating. Okay, that's a slight exaggeration.


No,sir. That is NOT an exaggeration.

More like "spot on."
 
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