DHS wants to force car owners to use OEM parts
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Originally Posted By: Kruse
Originally Posted By: Vern_in_IL
Should stay the same, they are already marked up, it might even make the parts cheaper since there will be more volume.
Seriously? That's like saying the cable TV suppliers would lower their monthly bills if more people signed up.
Okay, one other scenario: Where would you buy a part that has been discontinued by the OEM? I've seen parts that have been discontinued by the factory only 10 years after the part had been installed on the assembly line.
The only thing keeping some of the OEM parts in line is the fact that a replacement could be purchased through the aftermarket, even if it is a fraction of the quality.
Manufacturers are only required to produce replacement parts for 10 years. If you get a part from the dealer for a vehicle that's over 10 years old it's probably because that same part is used on another vehicle that hasn't hit the 10 year mark yet.
Originally Posted By: Vern_in_IL
Should stay the same, they are already marked up, it might even make the parts cheaper since there will be more volume.
Seriously? That's like saying the cable TV suppliers would lower their monthly bills if more people signed up.
Okay, one other scenario: Where would you buy a part that has been discontinued by the OEM? I've seen parts that have been discontinued by the factory only 10 years after the part had been installed on the assembly line.
The only thing keeping some of the OEM parts in line is the fact that a replacement could be purchased through the aftermarket, even if it is a fraction of the quality.
Manufacturers are only required to produce replacement parts for 10 years. If you get a part from the dealer for a vehicle that's over 10 years old it's probably because that same part is used on another vehicle that hasn't hit the 10 year mark yet.
Link: Reps. skeptical of PARTS Act’s patent exception, but indicate some legislation possible
So the EPA wants to limit aftermarket mechanical parts, but the House is considering opening up the market for origami sheet metal even further... this government is great.
So the EPA wants to limit aftermarket mechanical parts, but the House is considering opening up the market for origami sheet metal even further... this government is great.
Originally Posted By: AdRock
Manufacturers are only required to produce replacement parts for 10 years.
A parts man told me the complete opposite. I'm pretty sure your comment is an internet myth and there really is no law that says they have to produce parts for any amount of time, period.
Although if you could provide a link to your comment to prove me wrong, I would stand corrected. Got a link?
Manufacturers are only required to produce replacement parts for 10 years.
A parts man told me the complete opposite. I'm pretty sure your comment is an internet myth and there really is no law that says they have to produce parts for any amount of time, period.
Although if you could provide a link to your comment to prove me wrong, I would stand corrected. Got a link?
Everybody's opinion is different and everyone can buy whatever they want, be it aftermarket or OEM. Isn't that what made US so great? Why do I need the government telling me what I can or cannot buy?
Are people agreeing with these types of laws really so short sighted? Can't you all see where all of this is going?
Are people agreeing with these types of laws really so short sighted? Can't you all see where all of this is going?
Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog
The only aftermarket parts worth buying are wear items (brakes, tires, filters, etc), exhaust/mufflers, and high performance items (eg Bilstein shocks, Borla exhaust), and when the OEM part has a faulty design/recall.
Rebuildable/reman items may also qualify, since even the dealers/automakers don't do their own rebuilding (for example, a "factory rebuilt" CV axle at the Toyota dealer will most likely be a Cardone or other reman).
Items that contain no moving parts and are one piece are usually not a problem, either.
Aftermarket parts from companies that supply OEM's and automakers are fine. For example, Monroe and KYB shocks, Denso oxygen sensors, Deeza chassis parts, and Walker mufflers and cats are decent quality. Even though Monroe might not make the OEM shocks for a 20-yo Nissan Maxima, they do make OEM shocks for other cars such as Volvo and GM.
But the cheap Chinese parts flooding the aftermarket in the past 5 years or so, yeah, that [censored] needs to go.
I'll install the parts I want on my car. I'm intelligent enough to determine quality, thank you very much.
Also, there are many aftermarket solutions to OEM problems. Example: GM's leaky intake manifold gaskets.
The only aftermarket parts worth buying are wear items (brakes, tires, filters, etc), exhaust/mufflers, and high performance items (eg Bilstein shocks, Borla exhaust), and when the OEM part has a faulty design/recall.
Rebuildable/reman items may also qualify, since even the dealers/automakers don't do their own rebuilding (for example, a "factory rebuilt" CV axle at the Toyota dealer will most likely be a Cardone or other reman).
Items that contain no moving parts and are one piece are usually not a problem, either.
Aftermarket parts from companies that supply OEM's and automakers are fine. For example, Monroe and KYB shocks, Denso oxygen sensors, Deeza chassis parts, and Walker mufflers and cats are decent quality. Even though Monroe might not make the OEM shocks for a 20-yo Nissan Maxima, they do make OEM shocks for other cars such as Volvo and GM.
But the cheap Chinese parts flooding the aftermarket in the past 5 years or so, yeah, that [censored] needs to go.
I'll install the parts I want on my car. I'm intelligent enough to determine quality, thank you very much.
Also, there are many aftermarket solutions to OEM problems. Example: GM's leaky intake manifold gaskets.
Originally Posted By: Gasbuggy
The motive is to target performance applications. The fanatics within the EPA can't sleep at night knowing only 99.9% of vehicles on the road are complying with their emissions standards.
Well and good for them. If a car is tampered with it can emit 100s of times the limit for a particular pollutant. And law-abiding new car buyers are paying for expensive tech that could have been made cheaper if we were willing to accept slightly dirtier air.
Dodge figured out how to put 700 hp in a street legal car and one can still build a dirty, carb'd 1960s SBC to put in a period-correct chassis and only meet grandfathered standards, which would mean approx one PCV valve and two feet of rubber hose.
The motive is to target performance applications. The fanatics within the EPA can't sleep at night knowing only 99.9% of vehicles on the road are complying with their emissions standards.
Well and good for them. If a car is tampered with it can emit 100s of times the limit for a particular pollutant. And law-abiding new car buyers are paying for expensive tech that could have been made cheaper if we were willing to accept slightly dirtier air.
Dodge figured out how to put 700 hp in a street legal car and one can still build a dirty, carb'd 1960s SBC to put in a period-correct chassis and only meet grandfathered standards, which would mean approx one PCV valve and two feet of rubber hose.
Originally Posted By: Kruse
Originally Posted By: AdRock
Manufacturers are only required to produce replacement parts for 10 years.
A parts man told me the complete opposite. I'm pretty sure your comment is an internet myth and there really is no law that says they have to produce parts for any amount of time, period.
Although if you could provide a link to your comment to prove me wrong, I would stand corrected. Got a link?
This is tough to nail down, but I'll quote a GM CEO:
Quote:
In late 2003, General Motors, then led by CEO Rick Wagoner, officially canceled the EV1 program.[7][32] GM stated that it could not sell enough of the cars to make the EV1 profitable.[33] In addition, the cost of maintaining a parts supply and service infrastructure for the 15-year minimum required by the state of California meant that existing leases would not be renewed, and all the cars would have to be returned to GM's possession.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1
Originally Posted By: AdRock
Manufacturers are only required to produce replacement parts for 10 years.
A parts man told me the complete opposite. I'm pretty sure your comment is an internet myth and there really is no law that says they have to produce parts for any amount of time, period.
Although if you could provide a link to your comment to prove me wrong, I would stand corrected. Got a link?
This is tough to nail down, but I'll quote a GM CEO:
Quote:
In late 2003, General Motors, then led by CEO Rick Wagoner, officially canceled the EV1 program.[7][32] GM stated that it could not sell enough of the cars to make the EV1 profitable.[33] In addition, the cost of maintaining a parts supply and service infrastructure for the 15-year minimum required by the state of California meant that existing leases would not be renewed, and all the cars would have to be returned to GM's possession.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1
A lot of "OEM" parts are actually bought from aftermarket suppliers. They're probably the exact same part without the OEM markup. Car manufacturers can't make all of their parts, many are outsourced. OEM electronics are priced out of sight for what they do, and you can't get aftermarket equivalents for many of those.
the aftermarket parts companies make Billions what do you think they will do here?
Money talks..
And then there is always a black market not that we will need that in our lifetime.
Money talks..
And then there is always a black market not that we will need that in our lifetime.
I used to work for an OEM brake manufacturer and we were only required by OEM's to provide service parts for 10 years and to certain lower volumes. We would make them longer for high volume vehicles like the F150 but low volume vehicles were shut down at 10 years and went to the aftermarket product line. Main difference was different pad material and less stringent quality control. The things you would reject OEM pads for were ok for the aftermarket. Tolerances were much lower and sometimes even overlooked.
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Originally Posted By: Vern_in_IL
I really agree with this, after market parts are not that great.
When an aftermarket part is "redesigned" by the brand(not by the OEM, which is most superior in most cases), it's not to make it better, but cheaper to build.
Here we are in a day when I thought I would *ever* buy a starter or alternator from a dealership, but here we are, I will always use OEM parts.
Aftermarket lacks quality, and lacks value.
I can name off a list of where OEM is better than aftermarket; starters, alternators, fuel pumps, wheel bearings, struts, glass, et.
I only buy aftermarket filters, batteries, lube, wiper blades, fuel additives, bulbs, etcetera.
The prices of many OEM parts are nothing short of ridiculous. If you want to go buy a power steering pump for $800, brake booster for $1300, alternator for $700-900, etc, etc, God Bless You.
This becomes even more ridiculous once a vehicle is older.
I buy 34 vehicles worth of aftermarket parts and have not experienced the plague of quality issues you are insinuating exist.
Granted, there are times when I prefer OEM over aftermarket, but to do that all of the time? Absolutely not. I was recently quoted $1800 for an A/C compressor by OEM. That's plain insanity.
And what happens when the OEM decides to drop parts support? What do people do then?
What about the poor inventory?
OEM only is a fantasy.
Anyone who suggests that "all" aftermarket parts are substandard is a fool and probably works in a stealership.
Originally Posted By: Vern_in_IL
I really agree with this, after market parts are not that great.
When an aftermarket part is "redesigned" by the brand(not by the OEM, which is most superior in most cases), it's not to make it better, but cheaper to build.
Here we are in a day when I thought I would *ever* buy a starter or alternator from a dealership, but here we are, I will always use OEM parts.
Aftermarket lacks quality, and lacks value.
I can name off a list of where OEM is better than aftermarket; starters, alternators, fuel pumps, wheel bearings, struts, glass, et.
I only buy aftermarket filters, batteries, lube, wiper blades, fuel additives, bulbs, etcetera.
The prices of many OEM parts are nothing short of ridiculous. If you want to go buy a power steering pump for $800, brake booster for $1300, alternator for $700-900, etc, etc, God Bless You.
This becomes even more ridiculous once a vehicle is older.
I buy 34 vehicles worth of aftermarket parts and have not experienced the plague of quality issues you are insinuating exist.
Granted, there are times when I prefer OEM over aftermarket, but to do that all of the time? Absolutely not. I was recently quoted $1800 for an A/C compressor by OEM. That's plain insanity.
And what happens when the OEM decides to drop parts support? What do people do then?
What about the poor inventory?
OEM only is a fantasy.
Anyone who suggests that "all" aftermarket parts are substandard is a fool and probably works in a stealership.
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Leo99
Originally Posted By: mk378
It has always been illegal to modify a car in a way that increases its emissions. I like that rule. I don't want to have to breathe your [censored] pollution.
Aftermarket parts that do not affect emissions are legal and will continue to be.
Exactly. My understanding that the meaning of OEM in this context is a part that matches the specs of the OEM part; not that the part needs to be manufactured by the OEM.
+1.
Originally Posted By: mk378
It has always been illegal to modify a car in a way that increases its emissions. I like that rule. I don't want to have to breathe your [censored] pollution.
Aftermarket parts that do not affect emissions are legal and will continue to be.
Exactly. My understanding that the meaning of OEM in this context is a part that matches the specs of the OEM part; not that the part needs to be manufactured by the OEM.
+1.
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OE parts have their place. For many Honda and Nissan vehicles, aftermarket ignition parts often make the car run like [censored] so you're stuck buying OEM. But for standard things like pads & rotors, there are many good aftermarket choices like Akebono and Hawk so buying OEM is not worth it.
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Originally Posted By: pcoxe
A lot of "OEM" parts are actually bought from aftermarket suppliers. They're probably the exact same part without the OEM markup. Car manufacturers can't make all of their parts, many are outsourced. OEM electronics are priced out of sight for what they do, and you can't get aftermarket equivalents for many of those.
Finally, someone gets it.
There was a time when vehicle manufacturers were highly vertically integrated and produced most of the content that went into their products.
That time has long since passed and manufacturers are now more like assemblers of purchased components, which are sourced from many different countries. You'll find Chinese parts in every new vehicle, for example.
Who do you suppose supplies the better quality aftermarket parts?
The very entities that manufactured them as OEM parts.
Same parts, different box.
A lot of "OEM" parts are actually bought from aftermarket suppliers. They're probably the exact same part without the OEM markup. Car manufacturers can't make all of their parts, many are outsourced. OEM electronics are priced out of sight for what they do, and you can't get aftermarket equivalents for many of those.
Finally, someone gets it.
There was a time when vehicle manufacturers were highly vertically integrated and produced most of the content that went into their products.
That time has long since passed and manufacturers are now more like assemblers of purchased components, which are sourced from many different countries. You'll find Chinese parts in every new vehicle, for example.
Who do you suppose supplies the better quality aftermarket parts?
The very entities that manufactured them as OEM parts.
Same parts, different box.
Originally Posted By: faltic
DHS has a disturbingly close relationship with the NHTSA, judges and law enforcement.
This is about the NHTSA (DHS) forcing car owners to use 'original equipment manufacturer' (OEM) parts and not aftermarket parts. The aftermarket community is a multi-billion dollar market and this regulation, is just the beginning.
http://www.blacklistednews.com/DHS_wants.../38/38/Y/M.html
It'd be nice to think the government is doing it for reasons that benefit humanity (safety, clean air, etc) but that's probably half the reason with the other half being cronyism.
Anyway, I digress, because really, OEM parts are almost always the way to go, especially on Hondas, Toyotas, etc. Now, on collector cars, cars you want to tune, etc...hopefully they don't take the fun out of cars. And if they passed a law that made rolling coal a felony with 40 years imprisonment, the median IQ in the US would jump 5 points within a week.
Insurance companies try to cheap out when paying for body work, too. Some aftermarket don't have the right crumple zones and crash impact energy absorption characteristics OEM does. OEM is many times heavier aka better made. Now, if you're turning your car into a dragster, you'd want the lighter. If your wife is driving your kids to soccer practice...well, I guess that depends on how your marriage is going.
DHS has a disturbingly close relationship with the NHTSA, judges and law enforcement.
This is about the NHTSA (DHS) forcing car owners to use 'original equipment manufacturer' (OEM) parts and not aftermarket parts. The aftermarket community is a multi-billion dollar market and this regulation, is just the beginning.
http://www.blacklistednews.com/DHS_wants.../38/38/Y/M.html
It'd be nice to think the government is doing it for reasons that benefit humanity (safety, clean air, etc) but that's probably half the reason with the other half being cronyism.
Anyway, I digress, because really, OEM parts are almost always the way to go, especially on Hondas, Toyotas, etc. Now, on collector cars, cars you want to tune, etc...hopefully they don't take the fun out of cars. And if they passed a law that made rolling coal a felony with 40 years imprisonment, the median IQ in the US would jump 5 points within a week.
Insurance companies try to cheap out when paying for body work, too. Some aftermarket don't have the right crumple zones and crash impact energy absorption characteristics OEM does. OEM is many times heavier aka better made. Now, if you're turning your car into a dragster, you'd want the lighter. If your wife is driving your kids to soccer practice...well, I guess that depends on how your marriage is going.
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Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: pcoxe
A lot of "OEM" parts are actually bought from aftermarket suppliers. They're probably the exact same part without the OEM markup. Car manufacturers can't make all of their parts, many are outsourced. OEM electronics are priced out of sight for what they do, and you can't get aftermarket equivalents for many of those.
Finally, someone gets it.
There was a time when vehicle manufacturers were highly vertically integrated and produced most of the content that went into their products.
That time has long since passed and manufacturers are now more like assemblers of purchased components, which are sourced from many different countries. You'll find Chinese parts in every new vehicle, for example.
Who do you suppose supplies the better quality aftermarket parts?
The very entities that manufactured them as OEM parts.
Same parts, different box.
This is very true, too. But not always. Kind of like Warren making NAPA and Valvoline. Similar, yet slightly different. Depends on the brand, style, etc.
Originally Posted By: pcoxe
A lot of "OEM" parts are actually bought from aftermarket suppliers. They're probably the exact same part without the OEM markup. Car manufacturers can't make all of their parts, many are outsourced. OEM electronics are priced out of sight for what they do, and you can't get aftermarket equivalents for many of those.
Finally, someone gets it.
There was a time when vehicle manufacturers were highly vertically integrated and produced most of the content that went into their products.
That time has long since passed and manufacturers are now more like assemblers of purchased components, which are sourced from many different countries. You'll find Chinese parts in every new vehicle, for example.
Who do you suppose supplies the better quality aftermarket parts?
The very entities that manufactured them as OEM parts.
Same parts, different box.
This is very true, too. But not always. Kind of like Warren making NAPA and Valvoline. Similar, yet slightly different. Depends on the brand, style, etc.
OEM and aftermarket can be made by the same companies and usually are. However the specs are generally much different. What most of us call OEM from the Dealers is actually what we made and called "service' parts. They are a step between most aftermarket and OEM. Not as critical as OEM but still held to higher standards than aftermarket. We should probably break aftermarket into categories even as there are replacement parts and then there are performance parts.
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Originally Posted By: Gasbuggy
The motive is to target performance applications. The fanatics within the EPA can't sleep at night knowing only 99.9% of vehicles on the road are complying with their emissions standards.
Well and good for them. If a car is tampered with it can emit 100s of times the limit for a particular pollutant. And law-abiding new car buyers are paying for expensive tech that could have been made cheaper if we were willing to accept slightly dirtier air.
Dodge figured out how to put 700 hp in a street legal car and one can still build a dirty, carb'd 1960s SBC to put in a period-correct chassis and only meet grandfathered standards, which would mean approx one PCV valve and two feet of rubber hose.
But someone who buys a new Camaro, Corvette, 5.0, etc, wouldn't be able to order a well made set of headers from Kooks and then go have it tuned by a shop. Despite the fact that emissions systems would usually still remain intact, and a more efficient dyno tune would probably result in less emissions. I would not have been able to put a higher lift cam in my CTS-V. What country is this?
Auto emissions from all the cars in U.S. is rather insignificant in the grand scheme. People would be better served focusing on other issues but they are usually ignorant of relativity. The 15 largest ships create more pollution than all of the worlds cars combined.
Originally Posted By: Gasbuggy
The motive is to target performance applications. The fanatics within the EPA can't sleep at night knowing only 99.9% of vehicles on the road are complying with their emissions standards.
Well and good for them. If a car is tampered with it can emit 100s of times the limit for a particular pollutant. And law-abiding new car buyers are paying for expensive tech that could have been made cheaper if we were willing to accept slightly dirtier air.
Dodge figured out how to put 700 hp in a street legal car and one can still build a dirty, carb'd 1960s SBC to put in a period-correct chassis and only meet grandfathered standards, which would mean approx one PCV valve and two feet of rubber hose.
But someone who buys a new Camaro, Corvette, 5.0, etc, wouldn't be able to order a well made set of headers from Kooks and then go have it tuned by a shop. Despite the fact that emissions systems would usually still remain intact, and a more efficient dyno tune would probably result in less emissions. I would not have been able to put a higher lift cam in my CTS-V. What country is this?
Auto emissions from all the cars in U.S. is rather insignificant in the grand scheme. People would be better served focusing on other issues but they are usually ignorant of relativity. The 15 largest ships create more pollution than all of the worlds cars combined.
Originally Posted By: Gasbuggy
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Originally Posted By: Gasbuggy
The motive is to target performance applications. The fanatics within the EPA can't sleep at night knowing only 99.9% of vehicles on the road are complying with their emissions standards.
Well and good for them. If a car is tampered with it can emit 100s of times the limit for a particular pollutant. And law-abiding new car buyers are paying for expensive tech that could have been made cheaper if we were willing to accept slightly dirtier air.
Dodge figured out how to put 700 hp in a street legal car and one can still build a dirty, carb'd 1960s SBC to put in a period-correct chassis and only meet grandfathered standards, which would mean approx one PCV valve and two feet of rubber hose.
But someone who buys a new Camaro, Corvette, 5.0, etc, wouldn't be able to order a well made set of headers from Kooks and then go have it tuned by a shop. Despite the fact that emissions systems would usually still remain intact, and a more efficient dyno tune would probably result in less emissions. I would not have been able to put a higher lift cam in my CTS-V. What country is this?
Auto emissions from all the cars in U.S. is rather insignificant in the grand scheme. People would be better served focusing on other issues but they are usually ignorant of relativity. The 15 largest ships create more pollution than all of the worlds cars combined.
The ship argument is a partial truth that needs more info in order to not be misleading.
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Originally Posted By: Gasbuggy
The motive is to target performance applications. The fanatics within the EPA can't sleep at night knowing only 99.9% of vehicles on the road are complying with their emissions standards.
Well and good for them. If a car is tampered with it can emit 100s of times the limit for a particular pollutant. And law-abiding new car buyers are paying for expensive tech that could have been made cheaper if we were willing to accept slightly dirtier air.
Dodge figured out how to put 700 hp in a street legal car and one can still build a dirty, carb'd 1960s SBC to put in a period-correct chassis and only meet grandfathered standards, which would mean approx one PCV valve and two feet of rubber hose.
But someone who buys a new Camaro, Corvette, 5.0, etc, wouldn't be able to order a well made set of headers from Kooks and then go have it tuned by a shop. Despite the fact that emissions systems would usually still remain intact, and a more efficient dyno tune would probably result in less emissions. I would not have been able to put a higher lift cam in my CTS-V. What country is this?
Auto emissions from all the cars in U.S. is rather insignificant in the grand scheme. People would be better served focusing on other issues but they are usually ignorant of relativity. The 15 largest ships create more pollution than all of the worlds cars combined.
The ship argument is a partial truth that needs more info in order to not be misleading.
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