Input from Diesel truck owners

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Well, I don't have hard data to make the case, but I travel extensively every week over a minimum 10 state area and I have made both mental and actual notes of the numbers of diesel vs gas that business' are using, and it seems to be easily a 3 to 1 in favor of gas, for both 3/4 ton and 1 ton pickups. There isn't nearly the desire to have diesel pickups as there once was, primarily due to the emissions stuff and it's associated higher initial cost and operating costs. And many business owners got severely burned when diesel spiked a few years ago and are leery of getting caught in that again. While there are some individuals that have a definite situation which diesel power is a benefit, many diesel pickup owners seem to get them not because they need diesel, but because it compensates for a low testosterone level and the need to shore up their manhood any way they can. And by golly, they are going to let you know they have a diesel any way they can. Either with all kinds of additional emblems and stickers, or rolling coal and putting on exhaust pipes that are larger than the ones on my commercial semi truck.
 
The '06 & up Duramax & 5.9L/6.7L Cummins are proven engines, The 6.7L Ford has a good start, We will see how that pans out when they have Age & Mileage on them.

6.0L Powerstokes, They are hit & miss! Some of them are trouble free, Some are nothing but. A buddy of mine has a '07 with the only mod being a coolant filter, His has been a really good truck! My dad takes care of a fleet of them, Some of them have had 3-4 engines replaced in 200,000 miles. Like someone already stated....If you want a hobby....Get a 6.0L.

6.4L Powerstroke, Also hit & miss. The Siemens fuel system is [censored] compared to Bosch. Sudden engine failures have happened, Though this usually happened at low mileage & taken care of under warranty.

If you do buy ANY Ford diesel....Keep the water out of the fuel system! Ford was still using steel fuel tanks long after everyone else switched to Plastic, Plastic tanks just about eliminated water in fuel issues (Barring introducing water from the Pump/outside source) I bet I havnt drained a table spoon of water on my truck in 10 years/300,000.

The Ford Super Duty body/Cab/frame are very proven, Though it is basically the since 1999, Ford has only done updates.

Don't care much for the (GM) GMT-900 body, The GMT-800 is a better truck (Body wise).

Dodge, Well....It's a Dodge, They have never made a all-around good dependable vehicle that you don't have to buy several aftermarket "Fixes" to correct their poor engineering, Though I admit I don't have much experience with the current body style.
 
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
You do not NEED a diesel. You CHOOSE to use a diesel. There is a difference.


You are correct, I don't need a diesel, but i choose to buy them. With my duty cycle I don't want to deal with a gas engines higher fuel consumption and constant shifting when loaded. I have 11 diesel powered trucks/tractor/generators/boats, I know the difference in what I need to do and how gas vs. diesel preforms. I ditched the gas powered equipment in the early 90's except for a couple of the older ones that never see the road.

It boils down to you know your business and I know mine, most here are not business owners and are inquiring about their personal vehicles, which is a completely different situation. In what I do if I weren't putting over 30,000 mi. per year per truck I probably wouldn't even consider diesel either, but I do. Fuel consumption matters to me as when we are in our busy season we are burning through 150 gallons a day, every day.
 
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: ToadU
90% of diesel light duty truck owners don't need a diesel. 75% of diesel light duty business purchases don't need diesel either.


Actually, I would put the numbers closer to 99.999% and 98%.


I actually decided to make an I quiet on the comparison.

One local trucker gets the same fuel economy in his Peterbilt hauling 12-18 ton loads than another trucker records hauling 7 ton loads with his V10 Ford F550.
 
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
You do not NEED a diesel. You CHOOSE to use a diesel. There is a difference.


similarly, choosing to use fossil fuels and engines to do the work for you is a CHOICE...size the load and distance to market appropriately, and you could do everything you NEED to do with a wheelbarrow or a horse and buggy.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
You do not NEED a diesel. You CHOOSE to use a diesel. There is a difference.


similarly, choosing to use fossil fuels and engines to do the work for you is a CHOICE...size the load and distance to market appropriately, and you could do everything you NEED to do with a wheelbarrow or a horse and buggy.


No kidding. The anti-diesel crowd is always going to try to find an excuse to make diesel owners out to be a bunch of vain playboy's, instead of hard working people using the right tool for the job.
 
UPDATE:I've been doing lots & lots of reading.All the Big three forums and other forums like this GREAT forum.I've decided I may go back to a gas burner.I'm leaning towards a Chevy/Gmc 2500HD with the 6.0 engine.I will be pulling a 16'-18' horse/stock trailer hauling nursery plants.Hydrated potted plants can add up to some serious weight.I'II be putting around 200 miles a week during growing/selling season.
I haven't decided on 2 or 4 wheel drive yet.Another problem I'm having is finding a reg.cab/long bed in a 4 to 8 year old truck.As you know all the trucks now are crew car,mega cab and super duper cab.I need a truck not a play pretty.
THOUGHTS?
 
The GM 6.0L's are very good engines, Intake gaskets, Knock Sensors ('99-'07) & Exhaust manifold bolts are the only non-maintenance issues, The manifold bolt are the only thing that can turn labor intensive.

The 4L80E transmission in '99-'07 trucks is a VERY robust unit, Rebuilds are cheap if needed (Comparatively speaking).

The 6L90E used GMT-900 trucks ('07 to present), They are a 100,000 mile unit when worked hard, The plastic checkballs wear down & pass through the separator plate, Drums crack & burn frictions, Several control valve body issues, That's made by Aisin....The GM haters might find that interesting...

$4WD$, The '99-'07 (GMT-800) trucks have NP261 or a NP263, They both can develop a pin hole in the rear case half from the fluid pump rubbing, When they were built, A tiny "Spring steel" Tab prevents the pump housing from rubbing on the case, The Tab breaks off, Then the pump housing starts working on the case half. Pump Rub kits are available from Merchant Automotive....You have to catch this BEFORE it rubs a hole through the case. Thank New Process/Venture Gear for this!

GMT-900 trucks use a Magna Powertrain T-case, No problems so far.
 
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
The GM 6.0L's are very good engines, Intake gaskets, Knock Sensors ('99-'07) & Exhaust manifold bolts are the only non-maintenance issues, The manifold bolt are the only thing that can turn labor intensive.

The 4L80E transmission in '99-'07 trucks is a VERY robust unit, Rebuilds are cheap if needed (Comparatively speaking).

The 6L90E used GMT-900 trucks ('07 to present), They are a 100,000 mile unit when worked hard, The plastic checkballs wear down & pass through the separator plate, Drums crack & burn frictions, Several control valve body issues, That's made by Aisin....The GM haters might find that interesting...

$4WD$, The '99-'07 (GMT-800) trucks have NP261 or a NP263, They both can develop a pin hole in the rear case half from the fluid pump rubbing, When they were built, A tiny "Spring steel" Tab prevents the pump housing from rubbing on the case, The Tab breaks off, Then the pump housing starts working on the case half. Pump Rub kits are available from Merchant Automotive....You have to catch this BEFORE it rubs a hole through the case. Thank New Process/Venture Gear for this!

GMT-900 trucks use a Magna Powertrain T-case, No problems so far.



Thanks for the info.
 
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
The GM 6.0L's are very good engines, Intake gaskets, Knock Sensors ('99-'07) & Exhaust manifold bolts are the only non-maintenance issues, The manifold bolt are the only thing that can turn labor intensive.

The 4L80E transmission in '99-'07 trucks is a VERY robust unit, Rebuilds are cheap if needed (Comparatively speaking).

The 6L90E used GMT-900 trucks ('07 to present), They are a 100,000 mile unit when worked hard, The plastic checkballs wear down & pass through the separator plate, Drums crack & burn frictions, Several control valve body issues, That's made by Aisin....The GM haters might find that interesting...

$4WD$, The '99-'07 (GMT-800) trucks have NP261 or a NP263, They both can develop a pin hole in the rear case half from the fluid pump rubbing, When they were built, A tiny "Spring steel" Tab prevents the pump housing from rubbing on the case, The Tab breaks off, Then the pump housing starts working on the case half. Pump Rub kits are available from Merchant Automotive....You have to catch this BEFORE it rubs a hole through the case. Thank New Process/Venture Gear for this!

GMT-900 trucks use a Magna Powertrain T-case, No problems so far.



This is the first time I have heard the 6L90E having issues. I had always heard they are almost bulletproof. Never even seen a single complaint on the forums.
 
Originally Posted By: Nate1979

This is the first time I have heard the 6L90E having issues. I had always heard they are almost bulletproof. Never even seen a single complaint on the forums.


The failures I speak of are generally on company owned trucks that run at a higher duty cycle & abuse level you would never subject your truck to. The cracked drums mostly effected earlier units...Your way out of the woods on that one. Checkball wear will get any & all units eventually....And by that time your clutch fill volumes will be near "Max Adapt". The clutch pressure sensors go bad/get clogged often, Trim solenoids & shift solenoids are sporadic...But, By design you have to replace the Solenoids, Pressure Sensors, & TCM in one unit....Plus it will have to be flashed-programmed.
 
Originally Posted By: Nate1979

This is the first time I have heard the 6L90E having issues. I had always heard they are almost bulletproof. Never even seen a single complaint on the forums.


Same here. I guess all those cadillac CTS-V owners (Vettes and Camaro's, too) at the strip with 600-800 hp are running a light duty cycle!

And I can point to the biggest trans repair shop in my area who will badmouth 4L80-E's all day long as weak and poorly designed.

In short you know what you see, we love the 6L90's, they are doing well here in the 3500 vans at 9k pounds every day...
 
Originally Posted By: clinebarger


The 6L90E used GMT-900 trucks ('07 to present), They are a 100,000 mile unit when worked hard, The plastic checkballs wear down & pass through the separator plate, Drums crack & burn frictions, Several control valve body issues, That's made by Aisin....The GM haters might find that interesting...



The trans as a whole is Aisin, or just the control valve body assembly is Aisin?
 
My son in law drives a F 350 with a dump bed, snow plow, and pulls a large tree spade. He has a tree transplant business. His first one was 2003 with the diesel. Engine was fine but he traded up to a 2013 with the V 10 gas with 6 speed man trans. This is his heavy duty work truck, and he tells me he prefers the gas to the diesel.
 
All of the guys who use their trucks for work around here such as landscaping companies, plow contractors, etc have all switched to gas trucks or are nursing along really old Cummins powered Dodges and 7.3 Powerstroke trucks.

There isn't really a return on investment with diesel trucks now. The slightly better fuel mileage is outweighed by the expensive initial purchase price and maintenance costs.
 
Yeah, I think anymore that the major differences between gas and diesel are gone. The initial costs, combined with maintenance costs, and even though the diesel will get better fuel economy, it all ends up being a wash. If one truly can benefit from diesel because of what they are doing with the pickup, it makes sense to go diesel. But many diesel pickup owners are doing nothing more than the typical gas engine pickup owner most of the time. I still contend that many will go out of their way to get a diesel, and let everyone know it, for some sort of bragging rights. For those of us that deal with diesels every day, it is rather comical. I have nothing against diesel, it has its place for sure. I have to go thru over 20,000 gallons of diesel a year myself. But I have no desire to own any more diesels than absolutely necessary. So my 2500HD pickup has a 6.0L gasser in it. It doesn't have to tow often, and then, only light. I needed the hauling capacity that is significantly better than a 1/2 ton. The gas engine does just fine. And it is flex fuel, so when prices are right combined with knowing what the mpg is for various blends of ethanol, I can keep my cost per mile on fuel down to a minimum. A 3/4 ton pickup with a gas engine is not the most fuel efficient for sure, but I have generally gotten around a 14 mpg average for all miles.. gravel road, off road, rural highway, in town, hauling, empty, etc. Not too bad. And that has been primarily on E15 fuel which is about 50 cents a gallon cheaper than diesel. So fuel costs per mile have essentially been a wash between my pickup and a diesel version.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8


Same here. I guess all those cadillac CTS-V owners (Vettes and Camaro's, too) at the strip with 600-800 hp are running a light duty cycle!

And I can point to the biggest trans repair shop in my area who will badmouth 4L80-E's all day long as weak and poorly designed.

In short you know what you see, we love the 6L90's, they are doing well here in the 3500 vans at 9k pounds every day...


Well, I rebuild 6L80E's in Vette's & Camaro's all the time...Same issues as the 6L90E. They Burn Frictions more often in the performance cars vs the trucks. I've rebuild some with around 20,000 miles on them.

4L80E's are very good units.....Its a electronic TH400 with a Overdrive Clutch pack, Planet, Sprag & Lock-up converter. You can throw a boost valve & a shift kit in a used one & make it hold 600hp.
Throw in a Billet Input Shaft, Aluminum Direct Drum w/ 36 element sprag, Internally dual feed the Directs, High rate direct return springs, HD Intermediate snap ring, Remove the Forward Clutch piston divider & you have a unit capable of 1200 HP. That's using STOCK GM/Borg Warner Frictions.

I have never heard a builder badmouth a 4L80E, Sure they have a few issues the TH400 did not.
TCC lock-up issues causing wrong ratio codes & converter clutch failure.
Forward Drum bushing wear that takes out the forward clutch sealing rings then the forward clutches, But never seen this issue on sub 200,000 mile units. Most in the 300k-400k range.


The Express/Savanna 3500's didn't use 6L90E's 'til 2010/2011, So I'm assuming you have had some 3500 Vans with 4L80E's in the past? Did you have issues with them??





Some clutch pack pictures from a 6L80E out of a 2012 Camaro SS with Cam/Headers at 32,000 miles.




 
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: clinebarger


The 6L90E used GMT-900 trucks ('07 to present), They are a 100,000 mile unit when worked hard, The plastic checkballs wear down & pass through the separator plate, Drums crack & burn frictions, Several control valve body issues, That's made by Aisin....The GM haters might find that interesting...



The trans as a whole is Aisin, or just the control valve body assembly is Aisin?


Just the Valve Body & Valve body electronics.
 
The whole maintenance issue is a bit of an exaggeration of the truth. One of my commercial neighbors has 18 Duramaxes. He only has 4 model years represented. He bought a bunch of 04/05s that he still runs, and a bunch of 13/14 that he has purchased. How much mileage do his trucks get? The 13/14 are at 100k already.

Maintenence? Some of the 04/05s needed FICMS at about 150k miles. Some needed their injector clips ice-picked.

The 13/14s? Some of them have needed brake pads. One needed a rotor at 91k.

The gas comparison? He once rented a gas Silverado for a week waiting for his latest Duramaxes to be delivered. That truck used almost twice the fuel of his diesels, and the driver of that truck said it "sucked the fat one" to haul the trailer with that thing.

I don't understand the dissing of equipment options either. He orders crew cabs because he has 4 man teams. He orders black leather because it's the only interior that won't look like garbage from his dirty crews and the food they eat on the run. He naturally gets the navigation option because his drivers need to know where the heck they are and going.

The romantic image of the stripped down single cab truck is a bunch of sentimental tripe from the 90's. Business has advanced in terms of technology and comfort as much as anything in this world.

Now, once we get to the world of of car haulers, gasoline simply does not exist. Never seen one, never heard of one.

A 450/4500 or 550/5500 is a solid single digit fuel economy vehicle with a gas engine unloaded. Hook up a loaded 4 or 5 car trailer to one of those things, and you're at 4mpg at cruise.
 
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