EPA to ban race cars?

[Kruse]

This could awaken the sleeping giants who are race fans, or it simply means nothing.

http://jalopnik.com/is-the-epa-trying-to-ban-the-conversion-of-street-cars-1758013542

 

[JHZR2]

While there are many, many people on here that just outright hate the government and anything that is done, I suspect that some of the basic logic here is sound.

Is CAA and mandating fuel economy good? I'd argue probably yes to a point. Diminishing returns in the search for one last fraction of a ppm of some pollutant is probably a societal cost that doesn't yield returns. Getting to substantially cleaner cars from the carbureted hogs of yesteryear is probably beneficial across the board.

But why this?

I'd suspect that it is related to all the stuff that people can buy that is "for off road use only", wink, wink... That does not get used that way. How many power programmers, chips, emissions defeat devices, converter removal,schemes with different o2 sensors, and all that goes out and is not truly used off road?

I'd suspect that more of the market for this stuff gets used on road than purely off.

So this turns into one groups idea. Right? Maybe not. Enforceable? Might be tough. Must imhabe to think that there might be reasonable logic behind this one...

 

[robertcope]

This has been going around the various track/race channels recently. They did clarify things a bit:

"This clarification does not affect EPA's enforcement authority. It is still illegal to tamper with or defeat the emission control systems of motor vehicles. In the course of selecting cases for enforcement, the EPA has and will continue to consider whether the tampered vehicle is used exclusively for competition. The EPA remains primarily concerned with cases where the tampered vehicle is used on public roads, and more specifically with aftermarket manufacturers who sell devices that defeat emission control systems on vehicles used on public roads."

I am still not comfortable with that, personally. "It's still illegal and if we don't like you, we could make life [censored], but don't worry about it" is not a good answer.

I have no problem with enforcement for street vehicles. I wish they'd crack down harder on all the diesel trucks and "street racers", honestly. But race cars, true race cars that are not registered or street legal, need to fall into a different category.

robret

 

[Hokiefyd]

The updated Jalopnik article:

http://jalopnik.com/the-epas-crackdown-on-race-cars-explained-1758111546

Notes that the EPA's position is that nothing has changed -- that it's ALWAYS been against the law to modify any certified road engine by removing emission controls. The new regulation seems to seek to clarify that the term "nonroad" does not apply to certified cars that have been converted to racing use.

 

[Trav]

That's another agency that needs to be replaced right away. IMO no other single Government agency has damaged the countries economy as much as this one.

 

[A_Harman]

EPA: Economic Perversion Agency

or

EPA: Employment Prevention Agency

Take your pick.
They mostly do the bidding of the president; if he tells them to expand their power, they happily do so. Congress exerts no control on them, because they are afraid of being criticized for "causing pollution". The EPA is turning America into a fascist country and needs to be dismantled, and its tens of thousands of pages of regulations need to be burned. They're even writing regulations for controlling emissions from backyard barbeques.

 

[d00df00d]

No, they are not banning race cars! What are people thinking when they come up with these titles?

The EPA is re-asserting that it's illegal to screw with a vehicle's emissions. That's bad because it will crush the aftermarket and limit power mods.

So yes, this is a very bad thing. But it is NOT a ban on race cars. It's not even a ban on converting road cars for track use, because you can still modify everything else about the car.

Read first, post later.

 

[racer12306]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
No, they are not banning race cars! What are people thinking when they come up with these titles?

The EPA is re-asserting that it's illegal to screw with a vehicle's emissions. That's bad because it will crush the aftermarket and limit power mods.

So yes, this is a very bad thing. But it is NOT a ban on race cars. It's not even a ban on converting road cars for track use, because you can still modify everything else about the car.

Read first, post later.


You are correct, it is not a ban on race cars. It is essentially banning the modification of a street vehicle or former street vehicle in a way that would impair the emissions compliance of the vehicle. Not their domain. If the vehicle is no longer used on public roads, then it's out of their jurisdiction, in my opinion. This would not impact any purpose built race vehicle.

The specific wording in the proposed regulations (https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2015-07-13/pdf/2015-15500.pdf) states:

page 40596, subpart G, section 1036.601, paragraph a, 2

(2) The provisions of 40 CFR 1068.235
that allow for modifying certified
engines for competition do not apply for
heavy-duty vehicles or heavy-duty
engines. Certified motor vehicles and
motor vehicle engines and their
emission control devices must remain in
their certified configuration even if they
are used solely for competition or if they
become nonroad vehicles or engines;
anyone modifying a certified motor
vehicle or motor vehicle engine for any
reason is subject to the tampering and
defeat device prohibitions of 40 CFR
1068.101(b) and 42 U.S.C. 7522(a)(3).
Note that a new engine that will be
installed in a vehicle that will be used
solely for competition may be excluded
from the requirements of this part based
on a determination that the vehicle is
not a motor vehicle under 40 CFR
85.1703.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: Trav
That's another agency that needs to be replaced right away. IMO no other single Government agency has damaged the countries economy as much as this one.

So you want us to be like China and live in perpetual smog?
Next time you look up and see the blu sky or fish in a previously polluted river like the Susquehanna in pa. Thank the EPA Yes it involves cost and like any gov. Agency there is mismanagement.
If you don't like blue sky and clean water, move the frig to China

 

[Virtus_Probi]

I was really shocked when I saw how blithe people were on a Forester website I used to frequent about removing the cat on their modded street vehicles to get more power, like they were just putting a new steering wheel on or something else that really didn't matter.
Go to (heck), jerk wads...how about I drop some lead and mercury in your wells just because I feel like it.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Some people are still stuck in the 70s where catalysts cause restrictions and power loss.

 

[Bumble_guy]

You can thank your democrats for most of the garbage coming from Washington

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd


Notes that the EPA's position is that nothing has changed -- that it's ALWAYS been against the law to modify any certified road engine by removing emission controls.


That's not so. For clarity, it's "long" been against the law for "commercial entities" such as a business to alter certain vehicles.

However, only much more recently did the EPA introduce wording that prevented "private individuals" from altering certain vehicles. It has always been a state regulation that prevented private alterations.

From a US Constitutional point of view, the US Federal Government derives it's authority to regulate emissions via the so called "interstate commerce clause", to regulate commerce among the several states. The Fed Gov has no authority to regulate private individuals. Yet, with the fairly recent introduction of the "individual" to the CFR's, they clearly believe they have the Constitutional authority. It's yet to be challenged in Federal Court, and will stand until challenged.

 

[racer12306]

Originally Posted By: Bumble_guy
You can thank your democrats for most of the garbage coming from Washington


Get out of here with your junk.

I'm more liberal than I am conservative and I oppose this.

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
Some people are still stuck in the 70s where catalysts cause restrictions and power loss.


Today, we have engines like the Honda S2000 engine, with 2 cam profiles and very high specific output per displacement. Even so, such engines fall quite short of the specific output of dedicated race engines. The S2000's 2.2L engine makes 238HP. The Ford BD series of race engines from the 1970's produce upwards of 250HP from 1.7L. Later versions were well North of 300HP.

The best normally aspirated GM 6.2L V8 makes 460HP. Normally aspirated race versions are North of 900HP. It's not just the cat.