API SG,SJ and SL Zddp levels

[FCD]

so i've found at a local store some chaep mineral 20w50 to put in my car , it's rated API SG , Does this nececsarily mean that it would have more ZDDP than the current SL rated oil i am running? ( my engine has a flat tappet cam so i'm really anal about ZDDP lol )

 

[Rand]

I wouldnt trust anything with a SG rating.

Just get a bottle of ZDDP additive.. add to regular oil...or use a racing oil

 

[InhalingBullets]

Seems to me the cheapest and most abundant source of high ZDDP oils for you would be diesel oils such as Rotella T,Chevron Delo or Mobil Delvac but I dont know availability for you in your neck of the woods.

 

[Tom NJ]

Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
so i've found at a local store some chaep mineral 20w50 to put in my car , it's rated API SG , Does this nececsarily mean that it would have more ZDDP than the current SL rated oil i am running? ( my engine has a flat tappet cam so i'm really anal about ZDDP lol )


No. While SG oils did typically have higher ZDDP in their time, it is now an obsolete specification and not monitored or controlled. PQIA has found numerous SF & SG oils with phosphorus
Tom NJ

 

[propuckstopper]

Originally Posted By: Rand
I wouldnt trust anything with a SG rating.

Just get a bottle of ZDDP additive.. add to regular oil...or use a racing oil


Wrong. Why play chemist by adding a bottle of ZDDP? And racing oil is completely not formulated for everyday use. It is designed to be used in engines that receive VERY regular oil changes.

If you want to go further, there are plenty of specially formulated oils out there right now. Look for Amsoil Z-Rod, Brad Penn, or Gibbs. Let the chemical engineers do the chemical formulating...

 

[901Memphis]

It would be easier to stop worrying about high zddp just because you have a flat tappet cam and buy a modern quality oil

 

[barryh]

Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
It would be easier to stop worrying about high zddp just because you have a flat tappet cam and buy a modern quality oil


That's what I do and it gives you a wider choice of oil. Even with little technical knowledge of oils I reasoned the popular ZDDP debate had to be too simplistic. All ZDDP is not the same and modern oil must have improved the formulation of anti-wear additives in some way to maintain wear resistance for normal spring rate engines.

 

[440Magnum]

Unless your engine is BRAND NEW and just breaking in, there's absolutely no reason for more ZDDP than a modern SN oil has, especially in Xw40, but really even in Xw20 and Xw30. Your engine isn't a big-cammed stiff-springed racing v8, the valve pressures just aren't high enough to worry about ZDDP. Especially at the expense of all the other desirable qualities of modern oils.

 

[FCD]

None of those oils are avalable locally here

 

[FCD]

Alright thanks guys , right now i'm running Shell HX3 20w50 Which is a high mileage conventional oil rated SL / CJ-4 Which the engine seems to like, would it be worth it to give Valvoline VR1 a try? it's the same price as the stuff i'm running now and i'm aware it does have a good additive package including about 1200 ppm of zddp , and no my engine is not a high power engine it's stock

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Yardman snowthrower oil (5w30) is synthetic and its high dose zddp - at least it was a few years ago. Then you have 10w30 dual rated oils from Shell, the VR1 Valvoline, and in a 40 grade (4T) the 4 stroke snowmobile and motorcycle oils and ATV. Just because there is a photo of a motorbike on the bottle doesn't mean you CANT use it for high performance apps or ODPE. It typ API service cat SF/SG/SH (obsolete) or SM depending on grade.

 

[jhellwig]

Unless you have a new or rebuilt engine with a new cam and lifters you don't need higher zddp than what regular oil has in it.

 

[Joe90_guy]

SG oils sold today are likely to contain around 800ppm Phos. This is less than what they contained back in the day but that's how it is. Sorry!
If you want around about 1000ppm Phos, go SL and stick with European oils. Ideally you want SL in old fashioned Group I base oil. You don't want SL in Group II because it might contain less ZDDP.
If you want higher still levels of Phos (equates directly to ZDDP) then go for a Heavy Duty Diesel Oil (HDDO).
Alternatively, you could add some supplementary ZDDP. Speaking personally, I wouldn't have too much of a problem with this. Most oil formulators would add more ZDDP to an oil if they could. It's just that the specs don't allow them too. Nothing much bad happens if you add too much ZDDP, especially if you're plopping it into an old Capri. The whole 'low SAPs' hadn't even been conceived when your car came off the assembly line!

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
so i've found at a local store some chaep mineral 20w50 to put in my car , it's rated API SG , Does this nececsarily mean that it would have more ZDDP than the current SL rated oil i am running? ( my engine has a flat tappet cam so i'm really anal about ZDDP lol )


No. While SG oils did typically have higher ZDDP in their time, it is now an obsolete specification and not monitored or controlled. PQIA has found numerous SF & SG oils with phosphorus
Tom NJ


OP, have a look at
http://www.aftonchemical.com/ProductDataSheets/Engine Oil/HiTEC-9300C-SERIES_PDS.pdf

Particularly the treat rate charts...

I reckon on balance of probabilities that a "cheap" SG would have less additives than a decent SL, as per Tom's testing.

Here's some Blackstone testing of some ancient oils
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3474476/Blackstone_testing_of_ancient_

Looking at what was in the oils of the day, it would seem that the "good old days" weren't that impressive in the first place.

 

[Joe90_guy]

Ah, happy days....

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy

Alternatively, you could add some supplementary ZDDP. Speaking personally, I wouldn't have too much of a problem with this. Most oil formulators would add more ZDDP to an oil if they could. It's just that the specs don't allow them too. Nothing much bad happens if you add too much ZDDP, especially if you're plopping it into an old Capri.


That's good to know, especially coming from a guy who use to formulate oil for the big companies.

 

[Garak]

How about something that has a useful specification that is somewhat policed? Old specifications aren't policed anywhere, particularly old API specs. They're obsolete, and if you trust the oil company to have put in "SG levels" of AW additives, great. But, if you can't trust them, you've answered your own question.

My first choice if I couldn't find something that actually advertised higher ZDDP (Valvoline VR1 is another one of those options beyond those listed, which you said were unavailable) would be an A3/B3 A3/B4 oil or an E7, E9 oil. At least you're going to have some guaranteed minimum performance level, rather than relying on an ancient, obsolete specification.

An E7, E9 15w-40 might be the most sensible option from a price standpoint.

 

[TiredTrucker]

You want decent ZDDP, just did a UOA on a Schaeffer HDEO 10w30 syn blend CJ-4 / SM I decided to try in a factory rebuilt Detroit 60 engine. The oil had 20,100 miles on it at UOA. 1573 ppm of Zinc, 1276 ppm Phos, Calcium 1494, and Mag 985 with 68 ppm of Moly thrown in for good measure. Oh forgot... ACEA E7 / E9 rated for those that worry about such things. I don't.

 

[Shannow]

Claims those things rather than tested to those things...for those that worry about actual tests and certification.

Some of the stuff on their PDS don't make sense.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
so i've found at a local store some chaep mineral 20w50 to put in my car , it's rated API SG , Does this nececsarily mean that it would have more ZDDP than the current SL rated oil i am running?


Originally Posted By: Shannow


OP, have a look at
http://www.aftonchemical.com/ProductDataSheets/Engine Oil/HiTEC-9300C-SERIES_PDS.pdf

Particularly the treat rate charts...

I reckon on balance of probabilities that a "cheap" SG would have less additives than a decent SL, as per Tom's testing.


I agree with Shannow and Tom, any modern cheap SG 20W-50 is more likely to have a low treat rate and probably has less zinc than a regular SN oil (about 800ppm). I think things like A3/B4 Euro oils are more likely to have about 1000ppm Zn, especially things like M1 or Edge 0W-40.

The big issue is that the OP wants a 20W-50 for his 70's Ford Capri. So most of the options we are giving him like M1 0W-40 or a 15W-40 HDEO are too thin for him (if I recall his earlier thread correctly).

I don't know many A3/B4 or CJ-4 oils that are 20W-50.

OP, you have access to Valvoline VR-1, that's the oils for you if you are chasing a high ZDDP 20W-50

Avoid the cheap stuff, because it's most likely cheap because of a low dose rate.