Yes, I guess we'll have to see. As was already pointed out, we don't have ULSG here, though we do have ULSD. So few vehicles here call for a C3 oil, there's really not much to notice yet.
Low SAPS and engine protection
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Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Yet, they simply don't last (the oils) to the same extend as a full saps A3/B4 does. They're much more prone to early varnishing.
Yes bcs of sulphur in gas. If you use German gas, OCI is much longer.
If you use American gas, of well, 3K is best you can do it in DI engine.
I'm using european gas as is everyone else here...
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Yet, they simply don't last (the oils) to the same extend as a full saps A3/B4 does. They're much more prone to early varnishing.
Yes bcs of sulphur in gas. If you use German gas, OCI is much longer.
If you use American gas, of well, 3K is best you can do it in DI engine.
I'm using european gas as is everyone else here...
Originally Posted By: zeng
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Yet, they simply don't last (the oils) to the same extend as a full saps A3/B4 does. They're much more prone to early varnishing.
Not debating what you're saying , but would you explain the C3 varnishing phenomenon in relation to
A3/B4 ....say in 1.3L toyota MPI mid 2000's engine with 500 ppm sulphur Euro 2 RON 95 petrol in
my case ?
Appreciate your inputs ....
I'm sure I can't. I'm not familiar with that engine and your environmental conditions are very different from ours. I don't think I've ever used 500ppm sulfur gas.
I suspect it all boils down to tbn depletion. Being in a hot and at times very humid climate I would expect cold starts and fuel dilution being a lesser concern than aging of the oil through high temperatures and moisture in the oil.
I would reduce the oci by at least 1/3rd if I needed to use a C3 oil as in your case.
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Yet, they simply don't last (the oils) to the same extend as a full saps A3/B4 does. They're much more prone to early varnishing.
Not debating what you're saying , but would you explain the C3 varnishing phenomenon in relation to
A3/B4 ....say in 1.3L toyota MPI mid 2000's engine with 500 ppm sulphur Euro 2 RON 95 petrol in
my case ?
Appreciate your inputs ....
I'm sure I can't. I'm not familiar with that engine and your environmental conditions are very different from ours. I don't think I've ever used 500ppm sulfur gas.
I suspect it all boils down to tbn depletion. Being in a hot and at times very humid climate I would expect cold starts and fuel dilution being a lesser concern than aging of the oil through high temperatures and moisture in the oil.
I would reduce the oci by at least 1/3rd if I needed to use a C3 oil as in your case.
Not trying to stir anything but I have used truck oils with TBN of 16 in petrol engines for years. Escort 1.3 was almost all of its life on it, just until recently.
On 10-15k OCI, and car was used on longer trips before. Still plenty of varnish developed around 100k.
I suspect that some engines are prone to making varnish, probably combination of lower oil circulation and lesser temperatures in valve train.
On 10-15k OCI, and car was used on longer trips before. Still plenty of varnish developed around 100k.
I suspect that some engines are prone to making varnish, probably combination of lower oil circulation and lesser temperatures in valve train.
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Yet, they simply don't last (the oils) to the same extend as a full saps A3/B4 does. They're much more prone to early varnishing.
Yes bcs of sulphur in gas. If you use German gas, OCI is much longer.
If you use American gas, of well, 3K is best you can do it in DI engine.
I'm using european gas as is everyone else here...
So what UOA said?
Where do you live?
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Yet, they simply don't last (the oils) to the same extend as a full saps A3/B4 does. They're much more prone to early varnishing.
Yes bcs of sulphur in gas. If you use German gas, OCI is much longer.
If you use American gas, of well, 3K is best you can do it in DI engine.
I'm using european gas as is everyone else here...
So what UOA said?
Where do you live?
Originally Posted By: BobFout
Originally Posted By: BobFout
If there was a problem with low-SAPS oils, how does one explain the years of GF-4 and GF-5 oil usage (in non-European engines) with no issues...
Anyone?
I am not sure what is topic here. My brother had Peugeot 407 1.6hdi sold to one guy with 280,000km. Few months ago guy calls him and ask him does he have another car to sell since he trust only him. He would give him back 407 and money for Skoda Octavia 1.9tdi. My brother takes back 407 with 340,000km and engine is in perfect condition, ONLY Low-SAPS C3 oil used (Total) due to DPF.
He also has like 20 diesels with DPF that he uses for business purposes since he owns small company.
So, all this hypothetical issues are just that, hypothetical. When someone here turns 200K on Low-SAPS oil then I want to know their experience.
Originally Posted By: BobFout
If there was a problem with low-SAPS oils, how does one explain the years of GF-4 and GF-5 oil usage (in non-European engines) with no issues...
Anyone?
I am not sure what is topic here. My brother had Peugeot 407 1.6hdi sold to one guy with 280,000km. Few months ago guy calls him and ask him does he have another car to sell since he trust only him. He would give him back 407 and money for Skoda Octavia 1.9tdi. My brother takes back 407 with 340,000km and engine is in perfect condition, ONLY Low-SAPS C3 oil used (Total) due to DPF.
He also has like 20 diesels with DPF that he uses for business purposes since he owns small company.
So, all this hypothetical issues are just that, hypothetical. When someone here turns 200K on Low-SAPS oil then I want to know their experience.
What I think Bob is getting at is that most ILSAC oils already have a SA level of something like 0.8, which is obviously significantly lower than that of an A3/B4 type oil.
Originally Posted By: BobFout
Originally Posted By: BobFout
If there was a problem with low-SAPS oils, how does one explain the years of GF-4 and GF-5 oil usage (in non-European engines) with no issues...
Anyone?
at what intervals?
We're talking 10k intervals here (or more) and no highway use for most cars.
Originally Posted By: BobFout
If there was a problem with low-SAPS oils, how does one explain the years of GF-4 and GF-5 oil usage (in non-European engines) with no issues...
Anyone?
at what intervals?
We're talking 10k intervals here (or more) and no highway use for most cars.
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: BobFout
Originally Posted By: BobFout
If there was a problem with low-SAPS oils, how does one explain the years of GF-4 and GF-5 oil usage (in non-European engines) with no issues...
Anyone?
I am not sure what is topic here. My brother had Peugeot 407 1.6hdi sold to one guy with 280,000km. Few months ago guy calls him and ask him does he have another car to sell since he trust only him. He would give him back 407 and money for Skoda Octavia 1.9tdi. My brother takes back 407 with 340,000km and engine is in perfect condition, ONLY Low-SAPS C3 oil used (Total) due to DPF.
He also has like 20 diesels with DPF that he uses for business purposes since he owns small company.
So, all this hypothetical issues are just that, hypothetical. When someone here turns 200K on Low-SAPS oil then I want to know their experience.
Wouldn't the total C3 oil be mid-saps? We were still using full saps in those engines in 2008 when I went to another employer. We didn't have any DPF issues either.
Originally Posted By: BobFout
Originally Posted By: BobFout
If there was a problem with low-SAPS oils, how does one explain the years of GF-4 and GF-5 oil usage (in non-European engines) with no issues...
Anyone?
I am not sure what is topic here. My brother had Peugeot 407 1.6hdi sold to one guy with 280,000km. Few months ago guy calls him and ask him does he have another car to sell since he trust only him. He would give him back 407 and money for Skoda Octavia 1.9tdi. My brother takes back 407 with 340,000km and engine is in perfect condition, ONLY Low-SAPS C3 oil used (Total) due to DPF.
He also has like 20 diesels with DPF that he uses for business purposes since he owns small company.
So, all this hypothetical issues are just that, hypothetical. When someone here turns 200K on Low-SAPS oil then I want to know their experience.
Wouldn't the total C3 oil be mid-saps? We were still using full saps in those engines in 2008 when I went to another employer. We didn't have any DPF issues either.
We used full-SAPS oils in a FAP vehicles too. Not much of an issue, but engines didn't use any oil.
I had problems with c2 oils in one van, so try to avoid them.
We have Renault 1.5 dci with 420k km, mostly on C3 lubricants , original turbo, no varnish. 20k OCI.
I preferred B4 oils over C3 in my Mjet's. Only for a subjective reasons, no actual data.
My point is, if possible, to use full -SAPS oils, but C3 lubricants are known quantity in Europe, they work well.
I had problems with c2 oils in one van, so try to avoid them.
We have Renault 1.5 dci with 420k km, mostly on C3 lubricants , original turbo, no varnish. 20k OCI.
I preferred B4 oils over C3 in my Mjet's. Only for a subjective reasons, no actual data.
My point is, if possible, to use full -SAPS oils, but C3 lubricants are known quantity in Europe, they work well.
diesels don't tend to varnish, but petrols do...
True, but it looks like they handle soot fine too. They do "feel" more" beaten up" by the end of the OCI. Also more share prone, but that's on base oil, and product specific.
I would love to do an UOA on some of my engines for sure, but can't be bothered to send to US or to pay big money to the Germans.
I would love to do an UOA on some of my engines for sure, but can't be bothered to send to US or to pay big money to the Germans.
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: BobFout
Originally Posted By: BobFout
If there was a problem with low-SAPS oils, how does one explain the years of GF-4 and GF-5 oil usage (in non-European engines) with no issues...
Anyone?
I am not sure what is topic here. My brother had Peugeot 407 1.6hdi sold to one guy with 280,000km. Few months ago guy calls him and ask him does he have another car to sell since he trust only him. He would give him back 407 and money for Skoda Octavia 1.9tdi. My brother takes back 407 with 340,000km and engine is in perfect condition, ONLY Low-SAPS C3 oil used (Total) due to DPF.
He also has like 20 diesels with DPF that he uses for business purposes since he owns small company.
So, all this hypothetical issues are just that, hypothetical. When someone here turns 200K on Low-SAPS oil then I want to know their experience.
Wouldn't the total C3 oil be mid-saps? We were still using full saps in those engines in 2008 when I went to another employer. We didn't have any DPF issues either.
He uses Repsol C3 VW 504.00/507.00 for his VW fleet of vehicles. They are also upward of 250k km.
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: BobFout
Originally Posted By: BobFout
If there was a problem with low-SAPS oils, how does one explain the years of GF-4 and GF-5 oil usage (in non-European engines) with no issues...
Anyone?
I am not sure what is topic here. My brother had Peugeot 407 1.6hdi sold to one guy with 280,000km. Few months ago guy calls him and ask him does he have another car to sell since he trust only him. He would give him back 407 and money for Skoda Octavia 1.9tdi. My brother takes back 407 with 340,000km and engine is in perfect condition, ONLY Low-SAPS C3 oil used (Total) due to DPF.
He also has like 20 diesels with DPF that he uses for business purposes since he owns small company.
So, all this hypothetical issues are just that, hypothetical. When someone here turns 200K on Low-SAPS oil then I want to know their experience.
Wouldn't the total C3 oil be mid-saps? We were still using full saps in those engines in 2008 when I went to another employer. We didn't have any DPF issues either.
He uses Repsol C3 VW 504.00/507.00 for his VW fleet of vehicles. They are also upward of 250k km.
Originally Posted By: Garak
What I think Bob is getting at is that most ILSAC oils already have a SA level of something like 0.8, which is obviously significantly lower than that of an A3/B4 type oil.
Many GF5 oils are actually 1.0% Ash so closer to A3/B4 (1.1%) than a C3 oil which must be 0.8 or less
What I think Bob is getting at is that most ILSAC oils already have a SA level of something like 0.8, which is obviously significantly lower than that of an A3/B4 type oil.
Many GF5 oils are actually 1.0% Ash so closer to A3/B4 (1.1%) than a C3 oil which must be 0.8 or less
That's very interesting to know. I've only seen a couple SN/GF-5 datasheets, at least off the top of my head, that listed SA, and the two that I do recall looking at (may have been a Mobil product, but not sure) had a lower value. So, I guess my "most ILSAC oils" was a gross exaggeration.
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Not trying to stir anything but I have used truck oils with TBN of 16 in petrol engines for years. Escort 1.3 was almost all of its life on it, just until recently.
On 10-15k OCI, and car was used on longer trips before. Still plenty of varnish developed around 100k.
I suspect that some engines are prone to making varnish, probably combination of lower oil circulation and lesser temperatures in valve train.
I wish it only started at 100k. We've had to do partial rebuilds on engines with 50 to 80k... starts with timing chain issues, but the stuff you see inside is horrendous.
Not trying to stir anything but I have used truck oils with TBN of 16 in petrol engines for years. Escort 1.3 was almost all of its life on it, just until recently.
On 10-15k OCI, and car was used on longer trips before. Still plenty of varnish developed around 100k.
I suspect that some engines are prone to making varnish, probably combination of lower oil circulation and lesser temperatures in valve train.
I wish it only started at 100k. We've had to do partial rebuilds on engines with 50 to 80k... starts with timing chain issues, but the stuff you see inside is horrendous.
What engines Jet? Mitsi? This particular Ford is at 200k, still very silent, no chain rattle or excessive oil consumption. It does have light piston pin knock when cold though but maybe it's just a piston slap. Still, varnished as [censored].
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