Vacuum leak after 3800 intake manifold gasket job

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I did both my valve cover gaskets and both upper and lower intake manifold gaskets on a 3800 Series II GM V6 engine. Also replaced the upper plenum with a new Dorman one.

I seem to be getting a vacuum leak from somewhere around the throttle body. You can hear a hissing, and when I hit the gas, it whistles, and then the vacuum leak goes away. It seems like the new plastic plenum does not sit flush with the throttle body. Some parts are flush, others are not. You can see the new throttle body gasket through some of the gaps between the throttle body and the plenum. That's the other thing, the new throttle body gasket seems to stick out from the plenum. The old gasket sits flush against the plenum. I took the throttle body off to make sure everything was on evenly and the gasket was OK. Everything looked OK. Both times, I torqued the 3 nuts to 89 in lbs.

Despite the weird gaps and it not looking flush, there is no change in idle when I spray it with carb cleaner. As a matter of fact, I can't get the idle to change by spraying carb cleaner anywhere. I tried where the lower intake meets the heads, where the upper intake meets the lower, at the EGR tube, at the throttle body, at the rear vacuum tree, the brake booster hose, almost everywhere I can think of. I put all the new orings on the PCV valve, and have double checked both the PCV valve and the other black plastic piece that goes into the intake.

I'm stumped, and even though I'm not losing coolant, and there doesn't seem to be any coolant leaking from the intake manifold to heads area, the only thing I can think of that it would be is that I didn't install the lower intake back properly.

Only CEL code I'm getting is a P0102 low MAF sensor input. I measured the output voltage and it seems to stay around 2.6 volts, even when you rev it up. It barely moves at all, and it seems like revving the engine has almost no effect on the output voltage. Is this a symptom of the vacuum leak or is the MAF bad? This code wasn't on before, but I also forgot to remove the MAF when I cleaned the throttle body.

Any ideas on what more to check? I don't have any access to a smoke machine but I am thinking of trying to make something homemade.
 
I trust you have the intake duct connected? If so, does the engine idle fine? Not rough? Fuel trims normal? If so, then maybe your idle air control valve is causing the noise.
 
Originally Posted By: CaliCarLover
Only CEL code I'm getting is a P0102 low MAF sensor input. I measured the output voltage and it seems to stay around 2.6 volts, even when you rev it up. It barely moves at all, and it seems like revving the engine has almost no effect on the output voltage. Is this a symptom of the vacuum leak or is the MAF bad? This code wasn't on before, but I also forgot to remove the MAF when I cleaned the throttle body.


The MAF should be removed on these and the o ring replaced any time the throttle body is cleaned, lots of them have been toasted with aggressive carb cleaners.
Whatever you do don't buy a reman any brand inc Standard or Cardone new, go OE or a good used OE one.

AFAIK the throttle body uses a silicone seal that cannot be put on upside down or inside out, its either in the groove or it isn't.
Check the small vacuum tap near the brake booster tap for a hose off or uncapped. Did you remove the IAC motor?
 
Fuel trims will tell the tale, much more so than spraying carb cleaner. Get a scan tool if you do not already have one. If you do have a vacuum leak the trims will be positive.
 
I used the same Dorman intake manifold on mine when I did U/L gaskets, and I've also noticed the gaps between the manifold the TB, but mine does not make a hissing noise. I'm too lazy to actually remove the TB again and check it, but I'm pretty sure I would not have put the gasket in upside down/backwards (did this 3 years ago - is it really that easy to put the gasket in wrong?). I also tried spraying carb cleaner in the gap and made no difference to the idle speed, so that's pretty convincing that there's no leak. Still it looks bad. Do you have any pics? It looks to me like the mating surface of the plastic manifold is warped, but the original gasket is probably thick enough to still seal it. The only fix is probably to take it apart and use some silicone gasket sealer on the warped part.
 
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Originally Posted By: Trav
AFAIK the throttle body uses a silicone seal that cannot be put on upside down or inside out, its either in the groove or it isn't.


If it doesn't line up with the coolant passages, it's flipped around.

40-5036_Primary.jpg
 
Our '04 3800 hisses at idle, but has no codes. I've always attributed it to the IAC. I'm guessing your car didn't make the noise prior to the repair?
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
If the guy has the skills to do this job i think he is more than capable of putting that on properly don't you think?


I'm not the guy who brought it up; KingCake did.
grin2.gif
 
"You can see the new throttle body gasket through some of the gaps between the throttle body and the plenum. That's the other thing, the new throttle body gasket seems to stick out from the plenum. The old gasket sits flush against the plenum. I took the throttle body off to make sure everything was on evenly and the gasket was OK. Everything looked OK. Both times, I torqued the 3 nuts to 89 in lbs."

I have the same engine (times 3); I have done this repair several times, I DID have an EVAP connection split where my finger is. I have no "gaps" between the plenum and the throttle body:

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn26/Inspectorgadgetq/IMG_7433_zpshfxdlfzg.jpg
 
If I was in the OP's position and didn't know where I went wrong, I would've reversed everything and started over. That's better than pulling your hair out trying to guess what's wrong.
 
Didn't put the TB gasket upside down. It only fits one way, like someone mentioned, it only matches up to the coolant ports one way.

Yes intake duct is connected and everything is on right. How would the IAC valve cause the noise? It wasn't doing it before. I did leave the IAC valve on while I cleaned too. Never removed it.

Checked the brake booster hose and the vacuum tree/tap near it. All the hoses are on and none look or feel cracked.


Originally Posted By: Ihatetochangeoil
I have the same engine (times 3); I have done this repair several times, I DID have an EVAP connection split where my finger is. I have no "gaps" between the plenum and the throttle body:

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn26/Inspectorgadgetq/IMG_7433_zpshfxdlfzg.jpg


I will try to snap a photo of the gaps. Funny, that connection didn't split, and now it's fine. But before I did the intake manifold job, every once in a while when it would hard crank (I'm assuming from coolant getting into the cylinders), that connection would pop off the throttle body, and cause a terrible vacuum leak. The car would die at stops and would fluctuate around 500RPM (yes that bad). I would just pop the hood, reconnect the connection, and it would be fine. It hasn't done that at all since I did the intake gaskets.


Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
If I was in the OP's position and didn't know where I went wrong, I would've reversed everything and started over. That's better than pulling your hair out trying to guess what's wrong.

I'll probably end up just doing that, but it took me 2 days to finish the whole job. That did include the valve covers and all the cleaning that I wouldn't have to do again, but it's still a lot of time I was trying to avoid.

The problem seems to be getting worse. Rough idle almost all the time now.
 
Try unplugging the MAF and running the engine and see if there is an noticeable improvement.
Maybe split an injector O ring putting them back in to the intake? That will cause a lot of problems with vacuum leak and make noise also.
 
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No difference with MAF unplugged.

I already sprayed carb cleaner around all the injectors, with no change in idle. Just tried it again now to make sure. I don't really think any of the o-rings broke or anything like that. The fuel rail went in fairly easy.

I noticed the back vacuum tree fits pretty loose in the intake, (yes I did put the black o-ring on), but I sprayed carb cleaner all around it and no change in idle.

It sounds like it maybe is coming from inside the upper plenum, maybe the EGR sleeve, or that area? I tapped the new EGR sleeve in with a block of wood and it went in pretty easy. I know there's two different ones included. I used the correct one. I also checked that it was at the same height as the other one was. So I'm pretty sure the EGR sleeve is installed correctly. I will check on that small plastic tube inside the plenum that goes to the PCV area.
 
Originally Posted By: CaliCarLover
I'll probably end up just doing that, but it took me 2 days to finish the whole job. That did include the valve covers and all the cleaning that I wouldn't have to do again, but it's still a lot of time I was trying to avoid.

The problem seems to be getting worse. Rough idle almost all the time now.


It'll go easier the second time. Make sure you remember the little dabs of silicone in the corners where the rubber end seals meet the block and the lower intake manifold.
 
It almost sounds like the PCV valve o-ring was left off or split.

While the motor is running remove the oil fill cap and place the palm of your hand over the hole. If there is any vacuum there check the PCV valve o-ring.

Another common problem is that the corrugated steel EGR pipe cracks along the bottom causing a vacuum leak.
 
I found a video that best describes the noise I'm getting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZrWDgy40RU It's a whistle/air sound that only happens when you first rev it. I know it's for a Camry but it's the same sound.


Originally Posted By: ron350
It almost sounds like the PCV valve o-ring was left off or split.

While the motor is running remove the oil fill cap and place the palm of your hand over the hole. If there is any vacuum there check the PCV valve o-ring.

Another common problem is that the corrugated steel EGR pipe cracks along the bottom causing a vacuum leak.

PCV valve o-ring is there and intact. I just double checked it. Also double checked the diagram with the PCV, spring, and o-rings to make sure everything is installed right. The whole MAP sensor and PCV valve plastic assembly does jerk when you rev the engine. But holding it makes no difference, and spraying carb cleaner around there doesn't show a leak.

I checked the EGR pipe when it was off, it seemed fine. I put my hand around there and sprayed carb cleaner as much as I could and there doesn't seem to be any vacuum leak.


Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
It'll go easier the second time. Make sure you remember the little dabs of silicone in the corners where the rubber end seals meet the block and the lower intake manifold.

True, it always does. I did put the dabs of silicone in the corners. Just going to do a homemade smoke test and if I still can't find anything, then I'll just redo it. I'm just worried that I redo it, and everything was fine, and it still has the problem. But we'll see what happens.
 
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