Taurus Judge

[Astro14]

I've shot the regular Judge - a friend's pistol. The recoil is pretty stout with .410. It's fine with 45 LC. I shoot quite a bit, so, for a regular shooter, with reasonably strong hands, weapons experience, etc. it wasn't bad...

But that brings me to the point of my question - it's completely unreasonable to expect someone to pick up a weapon and use it effectively if they've not trained with it.

When you consider that we are discussing a pistol with considerable recoil, and a girlfriend, who likely doesn't have big, strong hands, or a lot of weapons experience, and will be under the stress of actually needing it, that's a recipe for complete disaster.

I wouldn't set up someone that I cared about for that kind of failure. It's not fair to them. Like tossing my kid the keys to the V-12 before they've got their license, or even had Driver's Ed, and without showing them that car, and saying, "if you need a car, take this..."

 

[bunnspecial]

Originally Posted By: hatt
10-15 years ago people would have laughed you out of the building for talking about self defense and .410s. Someone comes out with a gimmick gun and all of the sudden .410, out of a very short barrel, is the hammer of Thor.


Funny thing-my preferred shotgun is a 16 gauge. It's what I'm most comfortable with and shoot the best, so my Winchester Model 12 is what stays ready to go.

I've had people laugh at me for using a 16 gauge and not a "manly" 12 gauge, yet one of those people loves to brag about his Judge. I know another guy who loved to brag about how he could shoot a 12 gauge all day and I must use a 16 gauge because I can't handle a 12 gauge, ignoring the fact that he was shooting "trap" loads. I loaded some slugs out in my Model 12, and was on the ground after the first one.

I'll stick with my S&W Model 19 loaded with 357 Magnum Gold Dots for a handgun, thank you very much

BTW, I've also had a bit of a(good natured) debate with my BIL about HD shotguns. He keeps a loaded 20 gauge Mossberg with a composition stock, primarily so that my sister will feel comfortable with it. The Mossberg is lightweight, but the downside of that is that it kicks a LOT worse than most "typical" 12s. Having shot his Mossberg, I think a typical weight of 12 gauge is a LOT more pleasant to shoot.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: Olas
When you can use a .45 G2 R.I.P. round, the .410 becomes entirely useless.


Ah...more weapons wisdom from the guy that owns...no weapons...in a country that won't allow you to own any of the weapons being discussed...

The R.I.P. round is a triumph of marketing with no proven real world performance. It certainly looks cool (cool enough that Olas has taken the bait, and the hook, line and sinker)...but until I see some evidence that it works, there is no way I would bet my life on that ammo.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: hatt
10-15 years ago people would have laughed you out of the building for talking about self defense and .410s. Someone comes out with a gimmick gun and all of the sudden .410, out of a very short barrel, is the hammer of Thor.


+1

 

[bubbatime]

I laugh every time I see a person with one of these guns. They brag about it, often say, "look at this bad mf'er" and other stupid jargon.

Yeah it's deadly (with the right ammo). It's also stupid. A compromise, gimmick gun, for those that don't really know any better (yo Cletus, check out ma new gun).

You want a .45? Buy a Glock 21, Ruger Redhawk, or Smith & Wesson 25. You want a shotgun? Get a Remington 870, Mossberg 500, or Benelli M2.

 

[bunnspecial]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime
I laugh every time I see a person with one of these guns. They brag about it, often say, "look at this bad mf'er" and other stupid jargon.

Yeah it's deadly (with the right ammo). It's also stupid. A compromise, gimmick gun, for those that don't really know any better (yo Cletus, check out ma new gun).


Like I said, I love being in the lane after someone's been shooting one. It's pretty much the only time I find 45 Colt brass on the floor!

In the past, basically everyone who shot 45 Colt reloaded, and we guard our brass very jealously

. The Judge has brought a lot of non-reloaders to shooting 45 Colt, which benefits all the reloaders out there.

Now, I just wish someone would come out with a gimmick gun that shot 44 special or 32-20

. I do find 44 special occasionally, but I'm the only person I know who shoots 32-20.

 

[Olas]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: Olas
When you can use a .45 G2 R.I.P. round, the .410 becomes entirely useless.


Ah...more weapons wisdom from the guy that owns...no weapons...in a country that won't allow you to own any of the weapons being discussed...

The R.I.P. round is a triumph of marketing with no proven real world performance. It certainly looks cool (cool enough that Olas has taken the bait, and the hook, line and sinker)...but until I see some evidence that it works, there is no way I would bet my life on that ammo.


I'm the worlds most knowledgable armourer

 

[SOHCman]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: Olas
When you can use a .45 G2 R.I.P. round, the .410 becomes entirely useless.


Ah...more weapons wisdom from the guy that owns...no weapons...in a country that won't allow you to own any of the weapons being discussed...



True Astro, I'm surprised this limey isn't too busy driving the waaaaaaaaaaambulance to comment on such matters.

 

[Olas]

Wambulance?! Not a reference we use over here..

But anyway - it looks like it'll fragment and not over penetrate, but doesn't have the risk of stray pellets. Win-win?

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: Olas
Wambulance?! Not a reference we use over here..

But anyway - it looks like it'll fragment and not over penetrate, but doesn't have the risk of stray pellets. Win-win?


Problem is it won't penetrate ENOUGH. The FBI standard is that you must penetrate around 12 inches to ensure you reach vital organs. This makes for a round that will most efficiently neutralize a threat. Many 410 rounds penetrate around half as much.

Penetration is a double edged sword...and any round that is going to be effective at shutting down a bad guy is going to go through some walls if you miss. Actually some small caliber/high velocity rounds such as the 223 will penetrate walls less than a lower powered (in terms of kinetic energy) handgun round.

 

[SOHCman]

Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Originally Posted By: Olas
Wambulance?! Not a reference we use over here..

But anyway - it looks like it'll fragment and not over penetrate, but doesn't have the risk of stray pellets. Win-win?


Problem is it won't penetrate ENOUGH. The FBI standard is that you must penetrate around 12 inches to ensure you reach vital organs. This makes for a round that will most efficiently neutralize a threat. Many 410 rounds penetrate around half as much.

Penetration is a double edged sword...and any round that is going to be effective at shutting down a bad guy is going to go through some walls if you miss. Actually some small caliber/high velocity rounds such as the 223 will penetrate walls less than a lower powered (in terms of kinetic energy) handgun round.


True, You wouldn't expect something like an AR to be appropriate for home defense because it's a rifle afterall, but that's just not the case is it.

Its kind of like using #4 shot in a 12 gauge shoty. It's supposed to be better due to poor penetration of drywall, but is it going to perform bad-guy duty as well as something like 00 buck?

This brings up another point, pistols are a poor replacement for a proper rifle/shotgun in a HD role should you have the option.