Let's See Your Handgun Shooting Groups

[john_pifer]

I'm new to 1911s, and actually haven't done much measuring of group sizes in my shooting, in the past, but, with the accuracy potential of this Heritage that I bought last week, I'm getting interested in seeing just how tight I can get my groups with it.

I really don't know what kind of accuracy can be expected from it, so I thought I'd post up and see if you guys who like to shoot for groups would like to post up some of your results.

I've fired about 410 rounds through the Heritage, so far, over the last 3 days (no malfunctions), cleaning and lubing it before shooting for the first time, and cleaning approximately every 100 rounds and re-lubricating liberally.

The ammunition I've fired has been the following: Federal Aluminum-case 230-gr. FMJ, Remington Brass-case 185-gr. FMJ, Perfecta Brass-case 230-gr. FMJ, Blazer Brass-case 230-gr. FMJ, Federal Brass-case 230-gr. FMJ, Federal American Eagle Brass-case 230-gr. FMJ, Hornady Critical Duty 220-gr. JHP, Winchester Ranger 230-gr. JHP, Triton 230-gr. +P JHP.

Here are some photos of groups I've gotten:

Standing, off-hand, 33 feet:











From 50 feet, resting gun on ammo box:











So, after looking at the targets, a couple of initial conclusions can be drawn:

1. I was most consistent in my off-hand shooting with the Federal Aluminum-case 230-gr. FMJ, with most spreads 1.5" or smaller, with the smallest being .75". The Remington came in 2nd, with most all groups being ~ 1.5". The others tended to be a toss-up. I think it's obvious that the Perfecta was the most inconsistent. I'd say, using the Federal Aluminum or Remington, my average groups from ~ 30 ft. are about 1.5" at this point.

2. It was pretty cool to see how much the rested groups from 50 feet shrunk when I switched from the Federal Brass-case 230-gr. FMJ to the Hornady Critical Duty 220-gr. JHP.

I've looked at some accuracy threads here, and I've learned that dry-firing is a huge key to improving shooting, and I plan to do a lot of that.

Can't wait to see how much smaller I can get my groups with this Heritage!

Let's see some of y'all's groups. Also interested in hearing what ammo your gun likes, and if you've worked up any of your own loads. I've been thinking about getting into reloading for a long time, even going so far as deciding to buy a Dillon progressive reloading press, about a year ago, when I got my HiPower. But then I just never ended up doing it. Now I'm thinking more along the lines of a basic press that would load one at a time, for the reason of being very accurate and deliberate about the process.

 

[Leo99]

I think you're attributing too much contribution of the ammo to your accuracy. In other words, you are responsible for most all of the variance in the shooting.

Maybe I'll hit the range tomorrow before the snow comes in.

 

[OneEyeJack]

+1

No matter what you shoot, it's up to you to hit the target, no matter what that target might be.

 

[john_pifer]

Originally Posted By: Leo99
In other words, you are responsible for most all of the variance in the shooting.


I agree with this statement.

 

[Kuato]

Sorry I have none of my own to share....but this famous one came to mind.


Shot group

 

[AZjeff]

5 shot groups at 30 feet or 50 feet offhand are standard for shooter accuracy. Most gun rags shoot at 75 feet off the bench to determine pistol accuracy.

I have no photos to share and have been shooting drills exclusively lately but when I'm tuned into group shooting I can do 1" with the 1911, Glock, and Ruger Mk 2 at 30 feet. When you start to feel pretty good at 30 feet move the target to 50 feet and be humbled.

Your shooting looks good. Just duplicate exactly what you did for that .75" target. That DW beauty isn't holding you back!

 

[The_Eric]

Originally Posted By: AZjeff
When you start to feel pretty good at 30 feet move the target to 50 feet and be humbled.



Boy that's the truth!

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: AZjeff
5 shot groups at 30 feet or 50 feet offhand are standard for shooter accuracy. Most gun rags shoot at 75 feet off the bench to determine pistol accuracy.

When you start to feel pretty good at 30 feet move the target to 50 feet and be humbled.


Here I could not agree more. Every time I go to an indoor range and see these guys blasting away at a full sized silhouette target at 5 and 7 yards, I ask myself exactly what are they trying to accomplish? I always shoot at 25 or 50 yards. It will make a liar out of you real quick. It takes far more time, ammunition, and skill to produce consistent hits and groups at those ranges. But you'll become a better shot for it. Most people shoot handguns entirely at too close of a range. And then try to play "Quick Draw McGraw" on top of it.

People talk about how bad guy engagements occur at much shorter distances. They constantly talk about the "21 Foot Rule". And they're probably right. That in itself doesn't matter. Longer range shooting will magnify what you're doing wrong. It's much the same with these guys shooting shotguns at steel "Pepper Poppers" 20 feet away with bird shot. Big deal. Put them on a Trap line at 27 yards and lets see how they do. Most won't hit a thing.

 

[Leo99]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: AZjeff
5 shot groups at 30 feet or 50 feet offhand are standard for shooter accuracy. Most gun rags shoot at 75 feet off the bench to determine pistol accuracy.

When you start to feel pretty good at 30 feet move the target to 50 feet and be humbled.


Here I could not agree more. Every time I go to an indoor range and see these guys blasting away at a full sized silhouette target at 5 and 7 yards, I ask myself exactly what are they trying to accomplish? I always shoot at 25 or 50 yards. It will make a liar out of you real quick. It takes far more time, ammunition, and skill to produce consistent hits and groups at those ranges. But you'll become a better shot for it. Most people shoot handguns entirely at too close of a range. And then try to play "Quick Draw McGraw" on top of it.

People talk about how bad guy engagements occur at much shorter distances. They constantly talk about the "21 Foot Rule". And they're probably right. That in itself doesn't matter. Longer range shooting will magnify what you're doing wrong. It's much the same with these guys shooting shotguns at steel "Pepper Poppers" 20 feet away with bird shot. Big deal. Put them on a Trap line at 27 yards and lets see how they do. Most won't hit a thing.


All depends on your skill level and what you're training for. I shoot at 7-10 yards. Every now and then I'll shoot at 25 yards. I can hit center of mass but my groupings are huge. What's the point. And conversely, I see others blasting away at targets at 25 yards and they can't even hit the paper. I have no aspirations to become a sharp-shooter, just want to get in some trigger time.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Leo99
I see others blasting away at targets at 25 yards and they can't even hit the paper.


So do I. Those are the guys who wind up shooting at 7 yards.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: Leo99
All depends on your skill level and what you're training for.


I think it depends nearly entirely on what you're training for. 10 yards is 30 feet -- I hardly ever shoot my M&P Shield further than that, and would likely never try to engage with someone at a further distance than that. That's not the point of the tool or the muscle memory I'm out there to build. With the Shield, I'm working on draw technique and presentation. I don't really care whether my groups are 1" at 30 feet or .75" at 30 feet. Recognizing why I own a Shield, group size is irrelevant to me. Getting center of mass hits on target, and quickly, is what I'm there for.

Now, a target .22 pistol or a 10/22 rifle...sure, I'm out to 50 or 100 yards with that. Recreation is my purpose for those kinds of guns, and perfecting my technique on the trigger is my goal.

 

[CT8]

That is great shooting.

 

[bubbatime]

I actually did this in the police academy. Instructor was NOT amused.

 

[john_pifer]

Originally Posted By: AZjeff
5 shot groups at 30 feet or 50 feet offhand are standard for shooter accuracy. Most gun rags shoot at 75 feet off the bench to determine pistol accuracy.

I have no photos to share and have been shooting drills exclusively lately but when I'm tuned into group shooting I can do 1" with the 1911, Glock, and Ruger Mk 2 at 30 feet. When you start to feel pretty good at 30 feet move the target to 50 feet and be humbled.

Your shooting looks good. Just duplicate exactly what you did for that .75" target. That DW beauty isn't holding you back!



Thanks for that information, Jeff!

Yeah, I'm planning on doing a lot of dry-firing practice, as well as just pistol-holding drills to strengthen the muscles used in shooting. I'm not out of shape by any means - I run and mountain bike and ride dirt bikes every week, as well as work with my hands at my job. But, like most things, shooting uses different muscles. Someone posted this video over on the 1911forum.com, and I found it helpful, and an eye-opener about, really, what my training should consist of. I found it to be profound that SFC Sanderson shot so few live rounds in his training, leading up to his championship in the Olympics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=620LlSK3Oyo

 

[john_pifer]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: AZjeff
5 shot groups at 30 feet or 50 feet offhand are standard for shooter accuracy. Most gun rags shoot at 75 feet off the bench to determine pistol accuracy.

When you start to feel pretty good at 30 feet move the target to 50 feet and be humbled.


Here I could not agree more. Every time I go to an indoor range and see these guys blasting away at a full sized silhouette target at 5 and 7 yards, I ask myself exactly what are they trying to accomplish? I always shoot at 25 or 50 yards. It will make a liar out of you real quick. It takes far more time, ammunition, and skill to produce consistent hits and groups at those ranges. But you'll become a better shot for it. Most people shoot handguns entirely at too close of a range. And then try to play "Quick Draw McGraw" on top of it.

People talk about how bad guy engagements occur at much shorter distances. They constantly talk about the "21 Foot Rule". And they're probably right. That in itself doesn't matter. Longer range shooting will magnify what you're doing wrong. It's much the same with these guys shooting shotguns at steel "Pepper Poppers" 20 feet away with bird shot. Big deal. Put them on a Trap line at 27 yards and lets see how they do. Most won't hit a thing.


Yes, indeed. I am not interested whatsoever in shooting at any closer than 30 feet, unless I was doing a combat shooting class (I've never taken any classes other than HCP class).

What I am interested in is accuracy at distance. I feel that if I'm accurate at distance, if I'm ever forced to defend myself at close range, it won't be a problem.

 

[AZjeff]

Someone brought up the "21 foot rule", which is thought to be the distance away from you that you can defend yourself if they charge. I think it usually refers to defending yourself against a blade. It seems some PDs are re-thinking this and extending it out to 30 or 35 feet. We decided to test it, so the shooter faced a target at 5 yards with pistol concealed and arms relaxed. The bad guy started 21 feet away but at about 120 degrees and to the right of the shooter and would pass just behind him. The BG yelled and charged the shooter and guess what? Our best trained-up guy could draw and get a shot on target from concealment when the BG was 1 step away. I'm not as fast and could get a shot just before he touched my shoulder, meaning I'm getting stabbed as I get my first shot off. Moral, if you see a knife get your pistol out at low ready now. We shoot pistols from 1 yard to 100 yards. Why? To know what we can do...and it's fun! Nothing like 4 of 6 hits on a silhouette at 100 yards with a Glock 19! Don't go to the range and do the same thing every time.

 

[john_pifer]

Originally Posted By: AZjeff
Someone brought up the "21 foot rule", which is thought to be the distance away from you that you can defend yourself if they charge. I think it usually refers to defending yourself against a blade. It seems some PDs are re-thinking this and extending it out to 30 or 35 feet. We decided to test it, so the shooter faced a target at 5 yards with pistol concealed and arms relaxed. The bad guy started 21 feet away but at about 120 degrees and to the right of the shooter and would pass just behind him. The BG yelled and charged the shooter and guess what? Our best trained-up guy could draw and get a shot on target from concealment when the BG was 1 step away. I'm not as fast and could get a shot just before he touched my shoulder, meaning I'm getting stabbed as I get my first shot off. Moral, if you see a knife get your pistol out at low ready now. We shoot pistols from 1 yard to 100 yards. Why? To know what we can do...and it's fun! Nothing like 4 of 6 hits on a silhouette at 100 yards with a Glock 19! Don't go to the range and do the same thing every time.


You make some great points.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: AZjeff
Someone brought up the "21 foot rule", which is thought to be the distance away from you that you can defend yourself if they charge. I think it usually refers to defending yourself against a blade. It seems some PDs are re-thinking this and extending it out to 30 or 35 feet.


It would be great if the courts changed the it to 35 feet as well from a legal standpoint. All one has to do is watch and see just how fast a young athletic person can cover 21 feet. It's much faster then most would imagine, or can react to. And I'm not talking Larry Fitzgerald kind of athletics either. (Most criminals that are a genuine threat are not 75 years old with walkers). Just watch the TV show "COPS", when these young guys decide to bolt and run. Many are 30 feet away before the cop knows what's going on, and they end up in a 4 block foot chase. 21 feet is much too close to let anyone who is dangerous, get to you.

 

[john_pifer]

Here's the best I could do a couple of days ago:

30 feet, standing, off-hand, Aguila 230 ball:

50 feet, standing, off-hand, Aguila 230 ball:

75 feet, standing, off-hand, Aguila 230 ball. Had a decent little 2" group going until I got that flyer.

75 feet, standing, off-hand, Aguila 230 ball. Hit the bullseye, then another shot right next to it, then I went off the reservation.

Man, this gun is precise. Just need to work on my accuracy!

 

[Whitewolf]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: AZjeff
Someone brought up the "21 foot rule", which is thought to be the distance away from you that you can defend yourself if they charge. I think it usually refers to defending yourself against a blade. It seems some PDs are re-thinking this and extending it out to 30 or 35 feet.


It would be great if the courts changed the it to 35 feet as well from a legal standpoint. All one has to do is watch and see just how fast a young athletic person can cover 21 feet. It's much faster then most would imagine, or can react to. And I'm not talking Larry Fitzgerald kind of athletics either. (Most criminals that are a genuine threat are not 75 years old with walkers). Just watch the TV show "COPS", when these young guys decide to bolt and run. Many are 30 feet away before the cop knows what's going on, and they end up in a 4 block foot chase. 21 feet is much too close to let anyone who is dangerous, get to you.


This is something that concerns me, and it is especially true if one is an older, disabled, person who has not got a hope of running away. In that case 21 feet is far too close.