GDI-Turbo, LSPI; Chevron - Ornite's view

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wemay

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https://www.oronite.com/products/lspi.asp

The Role of the Lubricant in LSPI
Many factors have been demonstrated to impact LSPI, including: engine designs, fuel composition, and lubricant composition. On the lubricant side, the most noticeable impact has been from the detergent chemistry. Oils with higher concentrations of calcium, which is found in many detergent systems, have been shown to increase the frequency of LSPI. The exact chemistry of the detergent is less important to LSPI than the calcium content. Conversely, magnesium-based detergents do not seem to promote LSPI. Although reducing calcium may seem like a solution to control LSPI, there may be other performance tradeoffs to consider. In addition there are other additives that can also help reduce LSPI events. This provides an opportunity to formulate for robust LSPI performance, while maintaining the level of detergency needed to help keep engines clean and neutralize acids generated during combustion.
Aside from the detergent system, there are many other additive and lubricant compositions that can influence LSPI. Molybdenum compounds, for example, not only provide frictional benefits, but also have been shown to decrease LSPI when used at high levels. Base oils also affect LSPI events. Both the quality of the base stock (i.e. Group II versus Group III) and the viscosity can have secondary effects on LSPI. The effect on LSPI from these other lubricant aspects are not as significant as the detergent system, but can shift the LSPI frequency in oils that are more prone to LSPI.


calcium_chart.png


Additive effects on the frequency of LSPI in the Ford test. The "High Ca" oil has a calcium concentration typical of those in the market today. The “Low Ca” has been reformulated to resist LSPI, and is representative of how many next generation oils will behave.
 
Thanks wemay. Of all the oils on the market today, XOM/Castrol seem to have be ahead on this as their oils contain significantly less Ca than most others. When Mobil reformulated to GF-5, they went with a SA of .8.

Mobil emailed me this back in 2012.
Quote:
A slight reduction in ash is desirable for advanced engine technology such as gasoline direct injection (GDI) engine and passenger car diesel engines. With GDI engines, higher levels of ash appear to result in a higher occurrence of Low Speed Pre-Ignition. The industry is currently developing tests and specifications to address Low Speed Pre-Ignition. In the future, passenger car engine oil specifications such as ILSAC GF-6 and dexos1 (next generation) are likely to have requirements such as lower ash to address Low Speed Pre-Ignition.
 
Originally Posted By: buster
Thanks wemay. Of all the oils on the market today, XOM/Castrol seem to have be ahead on this as their oils contain significantly less Ca than most others.

Looking through some recent voas and uoas, i see castrol oils having about 2000 ppm of calcium. Is that considered less/low?
 
I suggest a two-pronged approach;

A drastic reduction in calcium, in conjunction with consistent use of the highest octane available.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: buster
Thanks wemay. Of all the oils on the market today, XOM/Castrol seem to have be ahead on this as their oils contain significantly less Ca than most others.

Looking through some recent voas and uoas, i see castrol oils having about 2000 ppm of calcium. Is that considered less/low?


On the safe side, i'd use anything in the lower ranges of Ca content. Either that or if containing "high" Ca, make sure the oil has a high Moly content as well.
 
Look at the latest PQIA results for Havoline 5w-20. Lower calcium, more magnesium, and more moly.
 
Good OP by wemay...I was just referring to the calcium/LSPI connection last night in a thread about oil for a WRX.
IIRC, somebody on here pointed out that the Castrol 5W30 that showed low Ca in the 2013 PQIA testing has been reformulated with higher levels. I am sticking with M1 5W30 for its (hopefully) low Ca for now, M1 5W30 ESP also seems to be very low in that element (without upping the magnesium) but also has a low initial TBN and is not API SM/SN certified for those who care about that.
 
Hi Vrtus_Probi,

Yes, if i remember correctly, it was lubricatosaurus that suggested Castrol has increased its Ca content.
 
But it does appear to be the case that Ca raises the possibility of LSPI. The SAE, Lubrizol and Chevron-Ornite, to mention a few, have confirmed as much.
 
Originally Posted By: wemay
https://www.oronite.com/products/lspi.asp

The Role of the Lubricant in LSPI
Many factors have been demonstrated to impact LSPI, including: engine designs, fuel composition, and lubricant composition. On the lubricant side, the most noticeable impact has been from the detergent chemistry. Oils with higher concentrations of calcium, which is found in many detergent systems, have been shown to increase the frequency of LSPI. The exact chemistry of the detergent is less important to LSPI than the calcium content. Conversely, magnesium-based detergents do not seem to promote LSPI. Although reducing calcium may seem like a solution to control LSPI, there may be other performance tradeoffs to consider. In addition there are other additives that can also help reduce LSPI events. This provides an opportunity to formulate for robust LSPI performance, while maintaining the level of detergency needed to help keep engines clean and neutralize acids generated during combustion.
Aside from the detergent system, there are many other additive and lubricant compositions that can influence LSPI. Molybdenum compounds, for example, not only provide frictional benefits, but also have been shown to decrease LSPI when used at high levels. Base oils also affect LSPI events. Both the quality of the base stock (i.e. Group II versus Group III) and the viscosity can have secondary effects on LSPI. The effect on LSPI from these other lubricant aspects are not as significant as the detergent system, but can shift the LSPI frequency in oils that are more prone to LSPI.


calcium_chart.png


Additive effects on the frequency of LSPI in the Ford test. The "High Ca" oil has a calcium concentration typical of those in the market today. The “Low Ca” has been reformulated to resist LSPI, and is representative of how many next generation oils will behave.




Thanks for this, Wemay. We have been seeing threads on BITOG for about a year relating LSPI to Calcium content, but I was curious if Magnesium was better or worse in its effect on LSPI. This Chevron paper indicates that Mg detergents don't promote LSPI.
 
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Yet another LUA

Toyota have an oil for it, apparently.

http://papers.sae.org/2014-01-2785/


Good link, and maybe what Chevron has done with Havoline, as seen with it's reformulated 5W-20.


Originally Posted By: A_Harman

Thanks for this, Wemay. We have been seeing threads on BITOG for about a year relating LSPI to Calcium content, but I was curious if Magnesium was better or worse in its effect on LSPI. This Chevron paper indicates that Mg detergents don't promote LSPI.


cheers3.gif


I was wondering the same thing A_Harman. I Guess all the PUP 5W-30 i purchased at $2/qt will go into the naturally aspirated Sonata instead. Unless i trust that the high Moly will suppress any ill effects of the high Ca.
wink.gif
 
The Toyota abstract also mentions antioxidants as important, presumably in suppressing the initiation of ignition, which is of course a rapid oxidation.

Antioxidants in oils are usually considered (at least by me) from the perspective of promoting long term stability of the oil and resistance to sludge formation.

I wonder if the same antioxidants do both jobs, and, if not (which seems likely) how they differ.
 
Pennzoil's take:
From... http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...rot#Post3836844

A: Low speed pre-ignition (LSPI) is more a phenomenon of engine design – and as you mentioned, occurs more frequently in gasoline direct injection (GDI) turbocharged engines. It is really a phenomenon for prototype or experimental engines that are still in the Research & Development phase, and oils with high levels of calcium-based detergents can increase LSPI frequency. HOWEVER, by the time the engine is fully designed and released to the market, it must be compatible with the available motor oils in the marketplace. Thus said, there is no need for concern.
 
Originally Posted By: wemay
Pennzoil's take:
From... http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...rot#Post3836844

A: Low speed pre-ignition (LSPI) is more a phenomenon of engine design – and as you mentioned, occurs more frequently in gasoline direct injection (GDI) turbocharged engines. It is really a phenomenon for prototype or experimental engines that are still in the Research & Development phase, and oils with high levels of calcium-based detergents can increase LSPI frequency. HOWEVER, by the time the engine is fully designed and released to the market, it must be compatible with the available motor oils in the marketplace. Thus said, there is no need for concern.


There were some Veloster Turbo owners who had a bit of a different take on this.
http://www.velosterturbo.org/forum/veloster-turbo-discussions/9852-why-motors-keep-blowing-up.html
LSPI may or may not be an issue with my FXT, but I will stick with (hopefully) low Ca M1 5W30 for the time being. I just hope it hasn't been significantly reformulated since the PQIA testing in 2013.
http://www.pqiamerica.com/March2013PCMO/Marchsyntheticsallfinal.html
 
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