Differential Problems

[Ztill]

Thanks for the welcome, just new here.

I like the idea of being able to have a place to go to dispel the incorrect ideas that come up about lubrication. Also I have my own question that I could use a real answer for.
To that point and I will start a thread for this.
I have just come across a situation that I have seen before or expected. A friend recently purchased an older but completely serviceable Bantham crane 19 t on a wheeled chassis. It has a set of tandem drives in the rear. Now I live in rural western Canada and this morning it is -16C or about 4F (ie. cold). We wanted to move the unit about in a cold shed and after plugging it in (for the night) the GM diesel started like a charm. But it would not move and Buddy had been using it before freeze up ?
We thought that the air brakes must be frozen to the drums, no not the case. (It is dam handy to be able to lift the drives of the ground with the stabilizer jacks). Ok, so what is wrong? It seemed like both diffs were frozen as the drive line would load up but there was no motion of the wheels. But how could that happen?
Water, both differentials we're filled, yes filled, with water. We pulled the inspection plugs and found ice. So two and a half hours later with stove pipe and a tiger torch (yes, two large fire extinguishers on had) we drained and I swear, two gallons of water then diff. juice from each.
The encouraging thing was that it came as water then oil after heating. We also left the drain plugs in ( inspection plugs out) so that the hot water would transfer the heat to the gears.
So Ok you experts, what is the best way to flush at minimal cost and labour? Now remember we may still have some ice/water at the wheel bearings.
One thought was fill with diesel fuel, drive far enough to warm thoroughly drain, refill drive to warm, drain. Then refill with quality diff. juice and a lubricity enhancer. Use for a bit and check for contaminated fluids.
Good idea or bad, remember the unit will probably only travel a few hundred miles per year.

I put this out to the informed for educated opinion.

Thanks in advance!

 

[supton]

I wouldn't use other than gear oil--few miles or not, there's gotta be a ton of stress when under way.

I'd think of filling with a cheap gear lube, down a grade or two (since it's winter), get up to temp. Drain. Maybe do a second time. Then go to proper grade, but in a cheap lube. No sense in "quality" lube if it's being used but a few miles per year.

I'd also look to see if there's a reason why water go into it in the first place. Bad breather, or just never changed in a century?

 

[Colt45ws]

I wouldn't use diesel, but I might entertain the idea of mixing plain 80W90 with up to 25% ATF.

 

[Ztill]

Hi, thanks for the quick ,

Further investigation came up that the first potential buyer of this crane had let it sit in a low area that may have flooded. Close inpection looks like there may be A water line 2/3 of the way up the diffs.
I thought about the ATF fluid mix as it is great as part of a home made penetrating fluid.
As for not being changed, it is a 1972 model, but the oil that did come out looked black and not brown with water contamination.
Thanks

 

[mk378]

I don't see anything good about using diesel. Some sort of alcohol would help to melt ice and collect water. Ideally of course you'd warm up the whole machine without running it then drain water fully.

 

[Chris142]

Cheap 80w90 and a few drain and fills. Hopefully the water has not pitted or rusted the gears and bearings

 

[widman]

We get lots of cars and trucks with water (many river crossings and roads where the water is bumper high in a good rain)

I always rinse with engine oil. The detergents love to suck up the water. Put in a high detergent SAE 50 (like a 90 gear oil) and move it around a bit, then drain and fill with the right oil.

 

[Colt45ws]

Oh, I forgot about SAE 50 being about the same as a 90 gear oil visc.
You can probably get away with SAE 40 too, being so far up north. Maybe something like Delo 100 SAE 40?

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: widman
We get lots of cars and trucks with water (many river crossings and roads where the water is bumper high in a good rain)

I always rinse with engine oil. The detergents love to suck up the water. Put in a high detergent SAE 50 (like a 90 gear oil) and move it around a bit, then drain and fill with the right oil.


The only thing I'd think about is using a mix of gear oil and detergent engine oil. Yes, I know the addpacks are probably not really "compatible," but I'd worry about the complete lack of hypoid-protecting EP additives when using pure engine oil in a hypoid gear application. You want SOME hypoid protection, unless there's a way to do the entire flush process with the thing unloaded (like wheels up in the air). But then you'd just about never get it WARM that way.

Given that this is a heavy machine, are the axles full-floating, and are the center sections removable? If so, it would be rather easy (relatively speaking, I'm sure the center sections weigh about as much as a big-block v8) to slide the axles out, and pop the center sections out, and clean up the mess. Then you could rinse everything down with a solvent (Varsol, kerosene, diesel), air-blow dry, wipe out the bottom of the housings, run a rag down the axle tubes like you were cleaning a rifle, coat the gears with gear oil, reassemble, and fill. wouldn't require any re-setting of pinion/ring mesh,or dealing with the wheel bearings (though you could drain and refill them at the same time to look for water).

 

[SuperDave456]

Also, heat lamps and shop lights are your friend.
You can use them as a heat source if you can get this thing under cover or out of the wind.
Just use quality extension cords.

I also like the gear lube atf mix idea, you could also get away with some inexpensive oil mixed in there too. I'd hit it with a heat lamp once full to try to melt and scavenge for water/ice. It's going to be difficult getting it up to temp to melt the ice as you've encountered.

 

[gathermewool]

It seems apparent that the lock-up was due to the frozen water, but can you confirm? Did you verify that it freely rotates now?

 

[MolaKule]

What grade of gear oil does it spec?

I would use a mineral GL-5 Hypoid gear lube of one grade lower, warm it up, run it around the yard, and then change to a synthetic gear lube because of your temps.

You may need to reduce your gear lube OCI's due to the risk of repeated condensation in a humid atmosphere.

Quote:
I also like the gear lube atf mix idea, you could also get away with some inexpensive oil mixed in there too.


I would not mix in anything that does not have the GL-5 additive package.

 

[mk378]

If it has been in flood water there is almost certainly mud involved, the only way to get rid of that would be to totally tear it down and clean every part.

 

[IndyIan]

Since you can run the wheels while up in the air, I'd do that for sure during the flushing phase.
MolaKule,
Could they not use a cheap non-detergent motor oil to spin the diffs while they are unloaded? No add pack residue, and they could just clean out the local dollar store?

What I would use at home, is my used tractor fluid that has been settling out for a few months and not worry too much about the possible additive issues. Just let it drain overnight to get most of it out.

 

[Kawiguy454]

I like the idea of flushing and running with the wheels off the ground. GL + ATF to clean things up.

 

[The_Eric]

Re-fill with an appropriate GL-5 lube and run it. If you're keeping for the long haul, then change it in a few weeks of use. Drive some side hills to quickly get lots of fresh oil outboard to the bearings.

 

[andyd]

I would also drain the transmissions or at least check out the lube

 

[Fred_Garvin]

Lift both axles fill partially with diesel and run for 10-15 min then drain and fill with GL5 of your choice. It has been more times than you can imagine in the past. The damage from the water is far worse than any damage you think will be caused by the diesel.

If you have not driven it with the water in the axles there should be none in the hubs. If you have then it may be wise to pull the wheels/hubs and clean and inspect the bearings. If old enough some rear axle hubs were packed with grease But you would have to go back to the mid 70's or earlier.

 

[widman]

The small amount of engine oil left is negligible. While in there a very short time to rinse, you are not stressing anything, and a CI-4 will give you close to 50 lbs timken.

I said move it around a little bit (could even be with wheels in the air). No drag racing here.

Diesel is too thin.

 

[Fred_Garvin]

Axles in the air unloaded, diesel will be fine for 10 min run time and will clean so much better than oil.

As I have said it is done all the time in the industry.