VW G12 + redline water wetter

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Originally Posted By: Shannow
Note the ones that have a reduction in coolant temperature.

That means that there's more heat being left in the engine.


Maybe, maybe not. The only way to really know what's going on would be to test with the car on a dyno so that it's under a known, steady load and compare coolant temp at the radiator inlet and outlet, as well as air temp entering and exiting the radiator.

If coolant temps go down and air temp increase (across the rad) stays the same or goes down, I'd say it's causing less heat to transfer into the coolant in the engine. If the coolant temps go down and the air temperature increase goes up, then the cooling system is moving heat more efficiently (and possibly moving more heat).
 
OK, we'll get back to heat transfer 101...

The heat sink is the ambient air, it's convective heat transfer, so the RATE of heat dissipation is proportional to the temperature of the radiator - the temperature of the ambient air.

Q=hA(Tr-Ta).

Water wetter doesn't change the outside of the radiator in the least, so h stays the same. It doesn't change the surface area, so A remains the same. It doesn't change the ambient air temperature, so Ta stays the same.

So by reducing coolant temperatures, these products reduce the rate of heat transfer into the heat sink (air).

Proof that they are picking up less heat in the engine.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Q=hA(Tr-Ta)


Works fine for pure, single phase convection. But, what about sub-cooled boiling flow, to onset of nucleate boiling, to partial film boiling? Now additional factors such as vapor density, latent heat of vaporization, surface tension, liquid/vapor contact angle, surface texture, etc. can come into play, etc. Is there even a precise model or formula in use today that accurately describes all the intricacies of the boiling behavior?

Surface tension/water bubble removal is where WW might come into play. Can we say for sure it doesn't? Surface orientation also plays a role in ONB to PFB where a downward facing surface heated from above can result in exceeding critical heat flux as the bubble's buoyancy tends to keep it near the wall surface. WW might be advantageous for such a condition, better than water by itself.

Unless we can entirely rule out sub-cooled boiling flow, we can't say what role WW might perform near the wall surface that the water/coolant flow doesn't do on its own.
 
Originally Posted By: 69GTX
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Q=hA(Tr-Ta)


Works fine for pure, single phase convection. But, what about sub-cooled boiling flow, to onset of nucleate boiling, to partial film boiling?


I tried that a few posts ago...reduction in nucleate boiling, reduction in bulk coolant temperature means reduced heat extraction.

check my post that you've quoted...I am talking specifically now about the radiator outer surface to the air...water wetter doesn't work on the air side of the radiator..well at least that's ONE thing that it's not claimed to do.

If you lower the radiator metal temperature, you reduce heat flux to the ambient.

And that means reduced heat extraction...can't collect more in the engine, and shed less in the radiator, can you ?
 
That's worth reading again. The "one side" of the heat exchange is unchanged, no matter what. And, there is no "other place" for the heat to go. Shannow's point is valid. Energy has to go somewhere or stay somewhere else.
 
It won't affect the air side of the radiator, but it could affect the water's ability to put heat into the radiator metal (which will increase the metal temp relative to the water temp, allowing it to shed more heat into the air).

That's why any comparison that's only measuring water temps tells us nothing at all. Measuring the air temp change across the rad will tell us whether more heat is actually being shed or not.
 
And measuring points in the engine metal, i.e. the block, would tell us even more. That will tell us, very directly, if heat is being removed more quickly from the block or not.
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
And measuring points in the engine metal, i.e. the block, would tell us even more. That will tell us, very directly, if heat is being removed more quickly from the block or not.


Agreed. There's more heat extraction going on than just at the radiator (ambient air, oil sump, oil cooler if installed, engine exhaust temps, etc.). If WW is helping to pull steam bubbles more quickly away from the engine walls, it's an advantage. I have no idea if it actually does that better than pure water. All I know is that I ran through a dozen bottles of the stuff over several years in a few older cars and did see a decrease in coolant coolant temps (mechanical gauge + IR gun), less coolant overflows to the ground when turning off the engine, and lower exterior metal temps on the engine itself.
 
As in all of these threads, I'll just have to concede that yes, it and it's peers are magic...

Logic doesn't work, physics doesn't work, so magic gets us through just fine.
 
Quote:
[/quote]I'm just a little surprised that OEMs, with all of their R and D, and wanting to optimise the operational envelope, and all having their unique coolants...don't include these surfactants in their requirements.

Like

Aerodynamic efficiency of our Ferrari 458 GT race car can be improved by selectively blanking the cooling airflow to the radiators. Since we have been running Purple Ice we have been able to operate with less airflow through our radiators reducing aerodynamic drag and still keep the engine well within operating parameters. We therefore believe that Purple Ice has improved the efficiency of our cars cooling system.
Ian Willis, Race Engineer
AIM Autosport


Cutting radiator size while improving aerodynamic efficiency sounds exactly like what they'd be chasing...but they don't...
Click to expand...
 
Another thought on the topic...

If something is being looked at by the automakers, researchers, and of those, there are usually volumes of papers floating on the net.

You would expect "Behaviour of automotive cooling systems with surfactant additives" or something like that to abound.

Theres plenty on nanoparticles in coolants with surfactants to keep them moving, but nothing on these "wetting products.

Only stuff on these products is manufacturer's fluff pieces, not actual test data.

Wonder why the automotive industry and researchers are touting the benefits of wetting agents in cooling systems ?
 
They probably use them in their racing teams when and where ethylene glycol coolants are prohibited, and found there's no advantage where a fully formulated coolant can be used, and probably found that out decades ago.
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Garak
They probably use them in their racing teams when and where ethylene glycol coolants are prohibited, and found there's no advantage where a fully formulated coolant can be used, and probably found that out decades ago.
wink.gif



Yep. I'm guessing that in normal street use where the cooling system isn't being pushed anywhere near 100%, there's no measurable gains to be had. Things like grille shutters, etc. probably do far more relative to their cost.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: spiderbypass
This is comparison chart of coolant additives found on lubeguard's website.

http://www.lubegard.com/pdfs/KOOLIT_comparison_sheet.pdf


Note the ones that have a reduction in coolant temperature.

That means that there's more heat being left in the engine.

None of these snake oils tell you what the metal temperatures are.


or they are using more water in the mix?
 
Sigh...

I am posting so that people who stumble onto this thread aren't like the OP and use the wrong product.

Water Wetter has anti-corrosion additives that play nice with old school green, but clash horribly with modern coolants. It has the anti-corrosion stuff because it's primary use is for being added to cooling systems running pure water, and is track friendly.

Diesel Water Wetter lacks the anti-corrosion additives and plays nice with all coolants. It's meant for systems running coolant mixtures.

Adding regular WW to G12, G12+, G12++, or G13 will result in a nasty brew and a failed cooling system. I have added the Diesel Water Wetter to DexCool, G05, G12, Fleet ELC type coolant, and the green garbage that Hyundai uses, with no ill effects. Actually in my experience, I have noticed the ECT's drop, remain more stable, and the heater blows hotter.

In water cooling for computers, Water Wetter has proven itself as being able to increase the cooling capacity of the system. When added to pure water, for example the CPU will run several C cooler. You are still limited by the thermal capacity of the system, basically how much thermal energy the radiator can dump into the air, that the fans can flow through it.

Also another point, with either Water Wetter, regular = pink, or diesel = blue, is that they only last for about a year after their application, and will require periodic reapplication.
 
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Yay, tech papers!

Regular(Pink) Water Wetter:

http://www.redlineoil.com/content/files/tech/WaterWetter Tech Info.pdf

Diesel(Blue) Water Wetter:

http://www.redlineoil.com/content/files/tech/Diesel Water Wetter Tech Info.pdf


Although, I noticed, Redline says WW is now compatible with DexCool. The paper for regular WW is more fleshed out than the Diesel one, but it's basically that Diesel one doesn't have any anti-corrosion additives, is compatible with ELC additives, and so forth.

HD coolants do use different chemistries from automotive stuff. IIRC they use nitrates to break surface tension, to combat the hot spots and cavitation problems.

Soooo....

In race cars and track day cars, when you have to flush the coolant because anti-freeze is banned, and run water... Water Wetter helps.

For an every day DD type car, with a cooling system that is healthy and happy. Diesel type may help, but it probably won't do much.

For a modified ride, pushing the cooling system, and running antifreeze because you live where it may freeze... Well then the Diesel type may help more noticeably in that case.

The take away, OE coolants are specced to do a job, and to do a job for a price, the cheaper the better. Your everyday car probably will live a million miles with regular maintenance and some preventative care.

I run some heavily modded toys, I help take care of some very stock stuff, and I live where it can get to -40C, I've had anti-freeze turn slushy... Anyways, I run the Diesel version in my toys and some others as test cases, and I've not had coolant sludge. I've run the regular WW with deionized water in my desktop's water-cooling setup both Intel and AMD.

So, it works, but you have to pick the right product, and realize that when used in a system with a coolant mixture, the results are far less than when used in a pure water setup.

smile.gif


Edit:

I have to get a coolant drain and refill soon on my mom's Hyundai. I can see the oil temperature in the head as well as the ECT. I should do some back to back tests with Diesel WW, and record the coolant/temperatures with the outside temps. That would show in an automotive application if it's helping lower more than just the coolant temps. I can probably do it in a month or two from now. Same day, back to back runs on the highway.
 
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