modern detergent oil vs racing oil with flush

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I'm wondering about a philosophy of using a racing type oil with lots of zddp and moly letting the varnish and sludge accumulate during the oci then use an aggressive flush right before drain.

In lieu of using a modern high detergent oil.
 
There is someone doing that, sort of. He uses a racing oil along with a toilet paper by-pass filter.

The car is a Caterham with a stock 2.2L Honda engine with some tuner upgrades, stainless steel exhaust header and exhaust system to fit the car. He hammers the car, that is drives it very hard all the time, goes through tires quickly. He actually uses it as a daily driver which I guess is possible because he lives in southern California and never sees snow or any really bad weather.

He claims that the toilet paper filter makes this setup work.

This setup is 5 years old with about 150K on the odometer. The engine and transmission came out of a crashed 2 seat Honda sports car with 10K already on the clock. The oil is changed every 5-10K miles and the full flow OEM oil filter is changed every other oil change. The toilet paper is changed when the delta gauge drops some amount. I forgot to ask him what that amount is.

I don't think this setup is practical for the average owner. Regular passenger car oil is very good and does not need any additives or other help.

Red Line 30WT
Phosphorus, avg PPM 2400
Zinc, avg PPM 2250
SAE Viscosity Grade 10W-30
Vis @ 100°C, cSt 10.0
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 64
Viscosity Index 141
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Why?


You've been here long enough to know why. An oil with no detergents will protect better. That's why racing oils have lots of anti wear and no detergents.

You have an optimum situation without the compromise built into passenger car oils.

Run the best oil then do a quick clean at the end of the oci.
 
Why - how "built" is the engine? Whats the valve train? How much seat pressure from the springs...

You could prolly run street legal VR-1 and not have the hassle of teh flush. Very good oil with lots of very stoutly built engines running it regularly on the street and the track ...
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I'm wondering about a philosophy of using a racing type oil with lots of zddp and moly letting the varnish and sludge accumulate during the oci then use an aggressive flush right before drain.

In lieu of using a modern high detergent oil.


Unless you're doing NASCAR type racing for hours it's totally unnecessary. You won't have decrease wear if you do drags or even 20 minute runs on a detergent free racing oils
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
An oil with no detergents will protect better. That's why racing oils have lots of anti wear and no detergents.


There is some theoretical support to this - anti-wear and detergent additives are surface-active and hence compete for surface space. But a lot of race teams use off-the-shelf oils, or oils based on off-the-shelf foundations.

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I'm wondering about a philosophy of using a racing type oil with lots of zddp and moly letting the varnish and sludge accumulate during the oci then use an aggressive flush right before drain.

In lieu of using a modern high detergent oil.


Sludge you may be able to shift with an aggressive flush, but not varnish. Varnish is a hard, baked-on veneer which will not come away with a flush. Even sludge can be quite tenacious since it is, by its very formation, not very soluble or miscible in oil.

Better to prevent the formation of this stuff than let it form and then hope to flush it away.
 
And I would suggest that sludge and varnish aren't of much concern to racing teams if an engine is expected to last only a few races in the first place. Of course, frequent changes will help mitigate this, just like in the ND motor oil days, but it's not the same as a fully formulated detergent oil.
 
varnish is fairly polar, so what's neededto remove it is something that's also very polar.

Water and caustic type degreasers will do that fairly readily, while oil based things will be next to useless in the proposed timeframe.

Industrially (and I've suffered from varnish), the technologies that are best dealing with it are relatively new.

The toilet paper bypass isn't a bad idea. The cellulose depth filter is one of the technologies. There are gathering sites in the depth media for the varnish to attach, and they do.

Another is an ion exchange bed, where the polar varnish molecules interact with the ion exchange resin, collect, and get discarded.

My fave, and I'd love to adapt it to an engine is an electrostatic process, where a charge is passed across a thin film of oil in a bypass arrangement. The charges attract the varnish to the plates, and they can be collected and cleaned.

These systems will take a varnished machine, and as the varnish is removed, the remnant will be drawn into solution and make it clean.

I get where you are coming from turtlevette, but I think the solution that you are thinking isn't one.

A bypass TP filter like has been suggested may keep you out of trouble reasonably well but I wouldn't trust it.

One thing too is that it settles out on metal surfaces where they are relatively cool, while being formed in areas which are relatively hot (solubility drops with temperature, and they drop out).

I think a very small bypass system that goes through an oversized cooler and back to the sump MIGHT collect the junk. Would need to be taken off and cleaned somewhat regularly.
 
So what's wrong with racing oils? Try this from Joe Gibbs Racing Lubricants (borrowed from another thread):


Much confusion and debate exists in regards to motor oils and lubricants in general. One of the primary reasons for this is that lubricants are chemicals in a bottle. Unlike hardware or sheets of plywood that are easily measured, touched and observed, lubricants are these slippery products that we typically don’t like getting on our hands. This opens the Pandora’s Box for clever marketers that have developed many “tests” to demonstrate the superior performance of their lubricant using their “proprietary formula featuring the miracle molecule unobtainium.”

In all seriousness, how do these “tests” actually relate to real world results? While these “tests” often seem to produce quite dramatic results, why is it that these same products don’t as often deliver as dramatic results in real world use?

The answer is quite simple, it’s mis-application. That may not have been the answer you was expecting, so let me explain.

Timken Bearing TesterWe are not dismissing the results of these “tests” as “slight of hand” or some other unscrupulous method of producing a false result in the “test”. On the contrary, many products can provide exceptional and repeatable performance in tests like the Timken bearing tester or the 4 ball wear test. The question is, are these valid tests that accurately predict motor oil performance in an engine?



Let’s consider the Timken bearing test. Also known in the lube industry as the Falex wear tester or “one armed bandit,” it is probably the most widely known “oil test.” The device consists of a rotating ring and a fulcrum arm that is used to place a load on a test specimen of bearing steel. The rotating ring draws the chosen lubricant into the contact area between the ring and test specimen. Then, the fulcrum arm is lowered to bring the test specimen into contact with the rotating ring. Variations of this test include manually loading the fulcrum arm to measure how much “load” the lubricant can carry before the ring and test specimen come into contact. Some variations of this test place a specified load on the fulcrum arm and then measure the wear scar on the test specimen. The basic idea being that the higher the load carrying and/or smaller the wear scar, the better the lubricant.

At first glance, this seems to make sense and appears to be logical. However, both Head and Shoulders shampoo and GL-5 rated gear oils will outperform motor oils in this “test,” so does that mean you should use Head and Shoulders shampoo as your motor oil?

The reason devices like these are not valid for testing motor oils lies in mis-application. First, these bearing and ball wear/load testers use bearing steel on bearing steel contacts. Engines are not made from bearing steel, so the metallurgy is not correct to an engine application. Second, none of these test devices simulate the by-products of combustion. One of the most effective additives in these “tests” are chlorinated paraffins. The additives are commonly found in metalworking fluids, and they provide excellent extreme pressure protection. However, chlorinated paraffins can form hydrochloric acid if exposed to water. Every combustion cycle in an engine creates water vapor, so some moisture will end up in the crankcase where it can react with the oil. If you are using an oil doped with chlorinated paraffins there is a higher risk of corrosive damage in the engine. Back when NASCAR allowed qualifying engines, many teams used special qualifying oils that contained high levels of chlorinated paraffins, and if the chlorinated paraffin oil was left in the motor after qualifying it was not uncommon for many engine parts to be damaged due to corrosion. In one instance, the acids from the oil actually “ate” a valve spring retainer.

As you can see, designing an oil for a “test” versus designing and oil for an engine are two completely different things. A PhD chemist that headed Research & Development for ExxonMobil Chemical once said that, “the only test for an engine oil is an engine.” That is a very true yet costly and time consuming reality. When Joe Gibbs Racing sought out Lubrizol, the world’s largest additive supplier, it cost over $1 million in engines and nearly 1 year to develop the specialized formulations for their NASCAR racing engines. Imagine how much time and money is involved in developing a fuel efficient motor oil for commercial diesel trucks, yet the technology for the commercial diesel trucks does not apply to the formulations for a NASCAR racing oil.

The point is to understand that the application itself dictates the correct chemistry. In fact, the false “tests” actually testify to this. Their outstanding performance in the application of the “test” is due to the chemistry being adapted to the “test”. What we are calling into question is the validity of the test to an actual engine. Caveat Emptor – Let the buyer beware is an appropriate warning in regards to engine lubricants that demonstrate “amazing performance” in tests that are not actual engines.


The point is not in the testing discussion, but the corrosion discussion ...
 
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
At first glance, this seems to make sense and appears to be logical. However, both Head and Shoulders shampoo and GL-5 rated gear oils will outperform motor oils in this “test,” so does that mean you should use Head and Shoulders shampoo as your motor oil?

The reason devices like these are not valid for testing motor oils lies in mis-application. First, these bearing and ball wear/load testers use bearing steel on bearing steel contacts. Engines are not made from bearing steel, so the metallurgy is not correct to an engine application.

You might want to reread this, in light of any of these types of tests. What temperature is Rat running his tests at?
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Why?


You've been here long enough to know why. An oil with no detergents will protect better. That's why racing oils have lots of anti wear and no detergents.

You have an optimum situation without the compromise built into passenger car oils.

Run the best oil then do a quick clean at the end of the oci.


Are there really racing oils with "no detergents"?
 
Originally Posted By: bluesubie
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Why?


You've been here long enough to know why. An oil with no detergents will protect better. That's why racing oils have lots of anti wear and no detergents.

You have an optimum situation without the compromise built into passenger car oils.

Run the best oil then do a quick clean at the end of the oci.


Are there really racing oils with "no detergents"?


VR-1 NSL (Not Street Legal) has almost nothing going for it.

Regular VR-1 has enough that even with 5000 mile OCI's, no flush, and about a half a quart of oil left in the engine on each oil change, there have been no accumulations of anything under the rocker covers. This in an engine that sometimes sees 280F oil temps.

My boats look super clean under the covers as well, running VR-1 on 100 hour OCI's.

I'd say the flush is highly unnecessary.

However, any engine I feel requires VR-1 never gets more than 5000 miles/100 hours OCI from me. It gets used anywhere that I feel an engine will shred even an HDEO.
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Why?


You've been here long enough to know why. An oil with no detergents will protect better. That's why racing oils have lots of anti wear and no detergents.

You have an optimum situation without the compromise built into passenger car oils.

Run the best oil then do a quick clean at the end of the oci.



OK so that's how you clean an engine, and it's interesting. There are other ways.
wink.gif
Besides detergent oil is what has been used as a PCMO for several decades now. I don't see any problems with them protecting an engine, even with a cleaner added if needed.

If I had a race car I'd use a racing oil. No disagreement there.
 
Originally Posted By: bluesubie
Are there really racing oils with "no detergents"?

The popular Mobil1 0w-30 Racing Oil has detergents:
Originally Posted By: postjeeprcr
Here is a VOA of the New Mobil 1 Racing 0W30.

Blackstone-E41615.jpg
 
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