With a barrel of oil dropping like a rock......

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....and the price of gasoline dropping dramatically as well ($1.99 at a Kroger).....my question is; Why hasn't motor oil dropped in price as well ???

Does anyone have any good reasons why this is so?
 
They're just making more money than ever. They won't drop their prices now, but as soon as crude oil prices go up, motor oil prices will go up from what they are now. Guaranteed. It's a little thing called greed.
 
If they are making "more money than ever.....why is the stock prices of all the major oil companies dropping dramatically as well?
 
Originally Posted By: Oregoonian
If they are making "more money than ever.....why is the stock prices of all the major oil companies dropping dramatically as well?


Because lubricating oil makes up small fraction of their overall sales volume.

You'd be better off looking at Ashland (could be wrong on that, just throwing it out there), and other companies whose primary business is lubricating oil. Looking at ExxonMobil, ConocoPhillips, etc. stocks will have zero correlation to motor oil price vs. profit.
 
Originally Posted By: 92saturnsl2
Originally Posted By: Oregoonian
If they are making "more money than ever.....why is the stock prices of all the major oil companies dropping dramatically as well?


Because lubricating oil makes up small fraction of their overall sales volume.

You'd be better off looking at Ashland (could be wrong on that, just throwing it out there), and other companies whose primary business is lubricating oil. Looking at ExxonMobil, ConocoPhillips, etc. stocks will have zero correlation to motor oil price vs. profit.


Yes, I should've specified that they are making more money than ever on motor oil. My original statement was a bit vague but I think everyone will get my point.
 
And I suspect that the price of crude oil makes up so little of the actual costs of making a jug of oil, that if we do see any differences, it'll be really tiny. It's interesting to note that one of my suppliers changes prices he provides stuff to me with as his suppliers (including the oil companies) change these prices. And, it's similar to when I buy stuff from Imperial Oil directly; prices fluctuate. We don't see any giant increases with oil price increases, nor giant decreases.

A local wholesale club, RCWC, has had M1 jugs fluctuate by no more than $2 over the past twenty years, and that's counting oil at rock bottom prices, and through the roof, and the Canadian dollar exceeding the value of the American dollar, and falling into the toilet.
 
Originally Posted By: Oregoonian
....and the price of gasoline dropping dramatically as well ($1.99 at a Kroger).....my question is; Why hasn't motor oil dropped in price as well ???

Does anyone have any good reasons why this is so?


It is now that they need profits from wherever they can get them.
 
This is an excellent question and deserves a proper answer. Here's my twopenneth worth...

First off, crude oil peaked at about $US 145/barrel in 2008. Today both Brent and West Texas Intermediate are going for about $US 36/barrel. So on my reckoning, engine oils should now be retailing for about A QUARTER of what we were all paying seven years ago! Hands up anyone that recognises this scenario? No-one?

Now the oil companies are incredibly silent on this matter but should someone have the temerity to ask them the question, they would probably say something like 'It's more complicated than that. You just don't understand things' and hope you shut up. Except some of us do sort of understand things and it's not that complicated if you break it down.

In very rough numbers, engine oil is 80% base oil, 10% liquid VII and 10% DI additive. So engine oil is 80% base oil right? Wrong! Liquid VII is typically made up of 10% solid VII polymer and 90% base oil (it needs to be solublised to make it handleable). So that 10% liquid VI adds another 9% of base oil to the oil. The same is sort of true for DI. That 10% DI pack might typically contain about 6% ashless dispersant but 'neat' ashless is far too viscous to handle so typically it's diluted 50:50 with base oil. So we can add another 3% base oil to the total. Then all those other DI components have to be made in a batch reactor and all reactors will contain base oil 'line flushings' as part of the mix. Finally, oil companies like a nicely convenient, rounded up treat rate which you do by adding a bit more base oil. For the sake of argument,let's say line flushing and round up puts another 2% base oil into the final oil. So instead if 80% base oil you get 80+9+3+2 or 94% base oil in a typically engine oil. That's a lot of base oil!

So having established that engine oil is primarily base oil, where does that base oil come from? Well for the three commonest types of base (Groups I, II & III), the answer is easy; it's crude oil. All three types of base oil have their origins in Vacuum Gas Oil which is derived from crude. Yes, Group III requires more processing than Group I/II but the reality is that once you've built your plant, the incremental processing costs are minuscule and your energy costs are themselves crude price dependant.

And if you're an industry watcher, you can't help but have noticed that Group II base oil plants have sprung up all over the place while older Group I plants have shut. The fundamental reason for this is that Group II plants not only produce better base oils (which in theory, require less DI), they have better yields. The upshot is that Group II plants make base oils that are both better AND cheaper than Group I plants.

Ah ha! I hear you say. What about PAO's and proper synthetics? Well yes, this is more complicated. Usually here everything starts off with olefin's (ethylene and propylene). These can be derived from Light Virgin Naphtha which in turn is derived from crude oil. Likewise iso-prene and butadiene are sourced from FCCU overheads which relates back to Vacuum Gas Oil and hence crude oil. You can also make this stuff from cheap natural or shale gas.

So, whichever way you slice the salami, you can't escape the fact that the price of engine oil should fundamentally reflect the lower crude price. And it doesn't. Not one bit. So why not?

Maybe people just aren't interested in low priced oil? Good point but hasn't the whole Amazon/eBay/internet thing taught us that everyone likes lower prices? In the UK, two German supermarkets (Aldi & Lidl) are trouncing the traditional market leaders simply by offering lower prices. So it doesn't matter whether it's smartphones and TVs or potatoes and pasta, people want lower prices.

So, it's about now that some rattled oil company PR person plays the 'technology' card. The old, 'we need to spend millions, billions and gzillions of dollars developing these oils and that's why they cost so much'. Well yes, it does cost millions of dollars. However, we have over recent years seen a big slow down in the rate of oil development. How old is GF-5 now and GF-6 is forever being put back? You only develop a category of oils once so how can an ever increasing ongoing surcharge on the engine oil price be justified?

Ah ha sir! We need to charge more to develop the next generation of oils. Really? Well I certainly didn't ask you to do this. None of the general public did. We never asked for ever thinner oils. If the OEMs want these so badly, then frankly they should put their hands in their own pockets and stop foisting tomorrow's specialist costs on today's ordinary driver.

So, if from a raw material/technology/price-demand point of view, there's no reason why engine oils shouldn't be cheaper, why aren't they?

I can think of three reasons. First, the oil companies are simply greedy bar stewards. Second, the engine oil market is not functioning as a truly competitive market with the industry's overly complex rules acting as protective barriers to entry. Third, we, the BITOG generation have transformed engine oil into something of a fetish item, instead of the slippery industrial fluid it once was.

Well that's what I think anyway...
 
Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
Third, we, the BITOG generation have transformed engine oil into something of a fetish item, instead of the slippery industrial fluid it once was.

This could be the quote of the year.
wink.gif
 
Just for balance, I thought I'd look at the price of car tyres (or tires for those people that speak English but can't spell it properly!). I don't know much about tyre chemistry but I know they contain a lot of stuff that should link back to crude oil. Butadiene and iso-prene for the basic rubber, carbon black filler and sulphur. They also contain a lot of stuff that directly or indirectly goes into engine oil (antioxidants and Zinc Oxide).

I found this 2014 article which said the price of tyres does not drop when crude oil falls but it does rise when crude goes up...

http://www.marketplace.org/2014/12/18/bu...cts-tire-prices

Anyone care to add to this?
 
Tires have gotten cheaper. I slithered through the Great Recession on used rubber but outfits like DTD and their amazing rebates have gotten me sets of four new ones for $101-144. Even Sears got me tires for my camry for $39 each. The marketing/ discounting/ rebate scene has simply gotten more convoluted.

When the average joe actually starts changing his oil less frequently to reflect the quality increase, only then will the price drop. Since quick lubes use loss leader oil changes to sell overpriced wiper blades, fan belts and other stuff under the multi-point inspection, the "true price" of motor oil is a fiction anyway.

PS Walmart, bastion of rock bottomness, sells their 5 quart jug for a couple bucks less online than they do for "impulse buyers" in the store. Makes me wonder what else they give that treatment... kitty litter? Laundry soap?
 
I don't know, I recently looked online at Wal Mart's oil offerings and prices seemed to be down quite a bit from this time last year. For instance, I paid I think $25 for a jug of Motorcraft 5W30 Synthetic Blend last year but the same jug was now showing @ $17.95. Other oils similar price drops.

As a disgruntled non-practicing pvt pilot who perpetually makes noises about "getting back into it", I have a bigger beef with the fact that 100LL AvGas prices have not fallen significantly with the lower price of crude in the same manner that regular unleaded and diesel have.
 
Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
I don't know much about tyre chemistry but I know they contain a lot of stuff that should link back to crude oil. Butadiene and iso-prene for the basic rubber, carbon black filler and sulphur. They also contain a lot of stuff that directly or indirectly goes into engine oil (antioxidants and Zinc Oxide).
Anyone care to add to this?


Most of the rubber in tires comes from latex, natural rubber from trees. http://www.bridgestonetrucktires.com/us_eng/real/magazines/bestof3/speced3_ingredients.asp Its 75% natural rubber, the rest synthetic. This percentage can vary, but current tires don't necessarily contain a lot of crude oil sourced materials. I'm guessing some tires for the automotive market can be as high as half synthetic rubber though, so some dependency on crude oil for sure.
 
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Current market price of different oil base groups
http://www.lubesngreases.com/lubereport/15_50/base-oil-report/-9694-1.html


Yeah. Base oil prices are way, way down on what I remember from 2008. Bog standard Group I used to be around the $US 1500-1700/MT mark. Also seems it's Group I that carries a premium over Group II these days. It used to be the other way round. Guess this reflects the changing supply base in the US.
 
It is of course possible that the price decreases are not being fully passed on in the chain, including retailers and distributors. You don't actually buy engine oil from an oil company.

A refinery still needs to process, a plant still needs to blend the stuff and someone has to package the oils and ship them to shops.

Its like asking why fuel prices haven't become 25% of the price when oil was at its peak
 
Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
I can think of three reasons. First, the oil companies are simply greedy bar stewards. Second, the engine oil market is not functioning as a truly competitive market with the industry's overly complex rules acting as protective barriers to entry. Third, we, the BITOG generation have transformed engine oil into something of a fetish item, instead of the slippery industrial fluid it once was.

Well that's what I think anyway...


Great post, really enjoyed it, thank you.

I'd agree that some products are not very sensitive to the material costs, once you factor in marketing, cost to manufacture, and, like you mention, the difficulty (time, effort) in being an oil or tire maker in a free market economy.

A case in point is the infamous ability of Luxottica to manipulate the eyeglasses market by marketing persuasion (buying up all the hot designer brands) and consumer access manipulation (buying up many popular retail stores). People should study the Luxottica takeover of the market for a near perfect example of how a free market becomes a limited-access controlled market very quickly, to some degree at least.
 
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