LASD Unintended Discharges
- Thread starter Ramblejam
- Start date
- Status
Always happens when a department switches from a double action/single action pistol to a polymer striker fired pistol. Years and years of bad habits that they could get away with on the double/single style pistol comes back and bites them in the rear with the new striker pistols.
Especially the officers that are not gun people (70+%), only go to the range once a year, and generally have bad gun handling skills.
Especially the officers that are not gun people (70+%), only go to the range once a year, and generally have bad gun handling skills.
A thorough, well written report detailing the work the OIG did. Started reading this and couldn't put it down (so to speak). The lack of records/data in such a large, modern agency surprised me. Findings and recommendations appear well thought out.
Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Always happens when a department switches from a double action/single action pistol to a polymer striker fired pistol. Years and years of bad habits that they could get away with on the double/single style pistol comes back and bites them in the rear with the new striker pistols.
Especially the officers that are not gun people (70+%), only go to the range once a year, and generally have bad gun handling skills.
Well said. Clearly a training issue. Most departments favor normal weight triggers and no manual safety and they are not popping rounds off unintentionally with anywhere near that kind of frequency.
Always happens when a department switches from a double action/single action pistol to a polymer striker fired pistol. Years and years of bad habits that they could get away with on the double/single style pistol comes back and bites them in the rear with the new striker pistols.
Especially the officers that are not gun people (70+%), only go to the range once a year, and generally have bad gun handling skills.
Well said. Clearly a training issue. Most departments favor normal weight triggers and no manual safety and they are not popping rounds off unintentionally with anywhere near that kind of frequency.
I'll never forget helping my Chief safely unload his 9mm Beretta when I was in the USCG almost 20 years ago. I guess he was accustomed to the 45, and he hadn't seen much time not behind a desk in the last 10 years or so. He forgot to drop the mag before he racked the slide and ejected the cartridge, thus reloading the pistol. He froze. I said whats wrong? The hammer is cocked! Throw your de-cocking lever down, drop the mag and eject. But the hammer is cocked!! I had to talk him off the ledge and give him some refresher training.
I was a federal special agent for an agency that had a lot of small offices all around the world, around 2,000 folks. Our duty roscoe was a double/single action semi-auto. We probably averaged about six unintended discharges a year. Almost none were "tactical," the way that word is used in the article. Most happened while loading or unloading. The IG would investigate each unintended discharge. If the round went into a clearing barrel the person usually got an administrative hand slap and remedial training. If the round went in a direction that could cause injury, often times that agent would be looking for another job. Almost every unintended discharge happens to these guys who can't keep their finger off the trigger.
Anyone who would or could cause an accidental, or negligent discharge of a Glock, or any other comparable pistol, should not be handling a weapon in the first place. Personally, I feel much the same about those who gripe about the grip angle. If they can't adapt their wrists to move a couple of degrees to properly align the sights, they've got zero business carrying a gun for self defense.
Finger on the trigger must be more common than i thought. I would have though training would have included keeping the finger off the trigger in most situations.
If startled most people activate flexor muscles, If you have your finger on the trigger, on a suspect and are startled( car backfire,a shout or sudden noise), he is shot.
I wonder how many times suspects are shot unintended due to this.
If startled most people activate flexor muscles, If you have your finger on the trigger, on a suspect and are startled( car backfire,a shout or sudden noise), he is shot.
I wonder how many times suspects are shot unintended due to this.
Last edited:
dnewton3
Staff member
External/active safeties are there to keep poor and careless human habits from manifesting into bad incidents (finger inside guard when you're not ready to shoot).
Internal/passive safeties are there to keep external influences from discharging a weapon (accidental drops, etc).
It's hard to out-think stupid. You almost cannot design a system robust enough for every circumstance the human condition is capable of generating and still meet a reasonable function and cost. Hence the ever-increasing cost of products due to consumer tort cases.
This issue the LASD is having is not new nor unique to the S&W. There were LOTS of complaints like this nearly three decades ago when Glock first made the scene.
The article is just fear mongering, as if the guns were defective or inherently unsafe by design. Simple lesson; keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot. These guns are not discharging by themselves; they are being unintentionally manually discharged.
Internal/passive safeties are there to keep external influences from discharging a weapon (accidental drops, etc).
It's hard to out-think stupid. You almost cannot design a system robust enough for every circumstance the human condition is capable of generating and still meet a reasonable function and cost. Hence the ever-increasing cost of products due to consumer tort cases.
This issue the LASD is having is not new nor unique to the S&W. There were LOTS of complaints like this nearly three decades ago when Glock first made the scene.
The article is just fear mongering, as if the guns were defective or inherently unsafe by design. Simple lesson; keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot. These guns are not discharging by themselves; they are being unintentionally manually discharged.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: totegoat
Seems like a lot of time and money is expended changing out pistols that work just fine.
I wonder what the real incentive is?
A 1992-2005 Beretta 92F should be replaced. Any police duty pistol 10 years or older, should be replaced. Law enforcement, in general, is going away from double/single action pistols as they require a lot more training to become proficient, and shooting scores and accuracy are generally less on a double/single vs a striker fired pistol. In this day and age of immense liability, they want their officers to hit what they are aiming at.
Plus their old pistols dont have a flashlight mounted to them. Most departments that can afford it and have a tactically minded purchasing/training officer on board, will go to a pistol and holster that allows a mounted flashlight.
6 shot revolvers "worked just fine". Should police agencies just stayed with those, since they "worked just fine"? Or evolved with the times with the newer technology available?
Seems like a lot of time and money is expended changing out pistols that work just fine.
I wonder what the real incentive is?
A 1992-2005 Beretta 92F should be replaced. Any police duty pistol 10 years or older, should be replaced. Law enforcement, in general, is going away from double/single action pistols as they require a lot more training to become proficient, and shooting scores and accuracy are generally less on a double/single vs a striker fired pistol. In this day and age of immense liability, they want their officers to hit what they are aiming at.
Plus their old pistols dont have a flashlight mounted to them. Most departments that can afford it and have a tactically minded purchasing/training officer on board, will go to a pistol and holster that allows a mounted flashlight.
6 shot revolvers "worked just fine". Should police agencies just stayed with those, since they "worked just fine"? Or evolved with the times with the newer technology available?
Originally Posted By: billt460
Anyone who would or could cause an accidental, or negligent discharge of a Glock, or any other comparable pistol, should not be handling a weapon in the first place. Personally, I feel much the same about those who gripe about the grip angle. If they can't adapt their wrists to move a couple of degrees to properly align the sights, they've got zero business carrying a gun for self defense.
One of these issues is a legitimate lack of training, and the other is one of personal preference. To combine them together into declaring who has business carrying a weapon and who doesn't is unfortunate.
Anyone who would or could cause an accidental, or negligent discharge of a Glock, or any other comparable pistol, should not be handling a weapon in the first place. Personally, I feel much the same about those who gripe about the grip angle. If they can't adapt their wrists to move a couple of degrees to properly align the sights, they've got zero business carrying a gun for self defense.
One of these issues is a legitimate lack of training, and the other is one of personal preference. To combine them together into declaring who has business carrying a weapon and who doesn't is unfortunate.
Originally Posted By: billt460
Anyone who would or could cause an accidental, or negligent discharge of a Glock, or any other comparable pistol, should not be handling a weapon in the first place. Personally, I feel much the same about those who gripe about the grip angle. If they can't adapt their wrists to move a couple of degrees to properly align the sights, they've got zero business carrying a gun for self defense.
They had a lot of them in Cleveland when they went to glocks. Bad habits die hard. My thought was to require any officer who had an AD to carry a S&W Model 10 .38 Special for a year afterward to reinforce the mistake.
Anyone who would or could cause an accidental, or negligent discharge of a Glock, or any other comparable pistol, should not be handling a weapon in the first place. Personally, I feel much the same about those who gripe about the grip angle. If they can't adapt their wrists to move a couple of degrees to properly align the sights, they've got zero business carrying a gun for self defense.
They had a lot of them in Cleveland when they went to glocks. Bad habits die hard. My thought was to require any officer who had an AD to carry a S&W Model 10 .38 Special for a year afterward to reinforce the mistake.
Not to make excuses, but one of the problems with Glocks is they require the user to pull the trigger prior to field stripping.
With most pistols you never touch the trigger unless you intend to fire. With Glocks you never touch the trigger unless you intend to fire OR want to field strip the pistol for cleaning.
One of the things the classic Sig gets right is that in order to field strip the pistol you have to lock the action open before you can throw the takedown lever.
With a Glock the user has to remember to unload before stripping. The Sig forces you to unload the pistol before stripping.
Edited to add:
Just looked over the report, looks like LA Sheriff has a rash of NDs after converting to the S&W M&P. Not a apparent design problem but a training one.
BSW
With most pistols you never touch the trigger unless you intend to fire. With Glocks you never touch the trigger unless you intend to fire OR want to field strip the pistol for cleaning.
One of the things the classic Sig gets right is that in order to field strip the pistol you have to lock the action open before you can throw the takedown lever.
With a Glock the user has to remember to unload before stripping. The Sig forces you to unload the pistol before stripping.
Edited to add:
Just looked over the report, looks like LA Sheriff has a rash of NDs after converting to the S&W M&P. Not a apparent design problem but a training one.
BSW
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: bsmithwins
......With a Glock the user has to remember to unload before stripping.
That's usually considered a good idea with ANY make of pistol.
......With a Glock the user has to remember to unload before stripping.
That's usually considered a good idea with ANY make of pistol.
Originally Posted By: bsmithwins
One of the things the classic Sig gets right is that in order to field strip the pistol you have to lock the action open before you can throw the takedown lever.
With a Glock the user has to remember to unload before stripping. The Sig forces you to unload the pistol before stripping.
Edited to add:
Just looked over the report, looks like LA Sheriff has a rash of NDs after converting to the S&W M&P. Not a apparent design problem but a training one.
BSW
The Smith M&P is the same way as the Sig -- you have to open the slide to swing down the takedown lever. AND -- they also even include the sear disconnect lever in the magazine well, so you can physically move the sear out of the way of the striker...so once you have the takedown lever down, you can move the slide right off the gun without pulling the trigger to lower the sear.
And the NDs still happen. Yes, a training issue.
One of the things the classic Sig gets right is that in order to field strip the pistol you have to lock the action open before you can throw the takedown lever.
With a Glock the user has to remember to unload before stripping. The Sig forces you to unload the pistol before stripping.
Edited to add:
Just looked over the report, looks like LA Sheriff has a rash of NDs after converting to the S&W M&P. Not a apparent design problem but a training one.
BSW
The Smith M&P is the same way as the Sig -- you have to open the slide to swing down the takedown lever. AND -- they also even include the sear disconnect lever in the magazine well, so you can physically move the sear out of the way of the striker...so once you have the takedown lever down, you can move the slide right off the gun without pulling the trigger to lower the sear.
And the NDs still happen. Yes, a training issue.
- Status
Similar threads
