Antique Engines...Modern Products/Old Technology

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New guy here.

Caring for the antique and classic combustion engine in modern times poses a different set, as well as some of the same questions for the modern consumer/caretaker.

Marvel Mystery Oil, a mythological substance, no real science. Detergent multiweight vs. non-detergent SAE. Zinc and phosphorus additives...ethanol blended gasoline melting seals and gaskets. Engines with poor filtration and crankcase ventilation. Some great science, knowledge and experience on the site would like to initiate a debate and/or directions to good threads on the forum. Thanks.

As my name suggests, I am the proud owner of a 1951 Ford Custom with the 239 cid L-Head "Flathead", flat-tappet V-8 with 37,000 original miles. Given to me by my father on his deathbed,I am doing what I can to honor his wishes with the car.

The engine is clean, runs very well, and I will continue his mild modifications on the V8. I have designed an PCV system drawing filtered fresh air through the valve chest, into the crankcase and evacuated into both plenums of an Offenhauser regular dual intake manifold with an appropriately sized PCV. This will help a notorious issue of oil contamination from inadequate crankcase breathing. There is much to do. Full pressure filtration and ethanol-proof seals are on the horizon but...

The ultimate question.What modern products are best...with reasonable science to lubricate, clean and protect the old girl. Techron, zinc/phosphorus additives, multi-weight detergent oils or straight non-d...and even the Marvel Mystery Oil (MMO)question.
 
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No need for MMO, high zinc would be nice for those flat tappets. Companies make oils specifically for old cars like Lucas Hot Rod and Classic oil. I know people like to hate on Lucas products though. Detergents might make old seals leak more by cleaning off deposits but are otherwise a good idea. Some sort of UCL might be good.
 
I have 3 vintage Ford 4 cylinder flatheads, from a 1939 to a 1951. I use Rotella 15W40 in all 3, and have no issues with 10% ethanol. Two of the three engines are worked hard on a regular basis (the third is a trailer queen).

Other than using Sta-Bil in the gas, which I use in all of my stored gas, I don't use any other additives. All 3 of the engines have their original 6 volt electrical systems (albeit rebuilt over the years) and all three will start and run in any winter temperatures. One of them I depend upon to keep my long rural driveway clear of snow in the winter, and it's completely dependable.

While all three engines have been rebuilt in the last 20 years (they were "basket cases" when brought home), all are rebuilt to original standards with no "mild modifications". I would encourage you to not fret over snake oil products, and simply maintain and enjoy the car. There is nothing difficult about maintaining these old engines; modern motor oil is vastly superior to the original products the engine was designed around, and simply changing it on a regular basis will keep it happy.
 
Originally Posted By: Fsharp
No need for MMO, high zinc would be nice for those flat tappets. Companies make oils specifically for old cars like Lucas Hot Rod and Classic oil. I know people like to hate on Lucas products though. Detergents might make old seals leak more by cleaning off deposits but are otherwise a good idea. Some sort of UCL might be good.

Zinc content in oils of the early '50s was likely less than the current SN oils, ZDDP wasn't even introduced till 1948(meaning that same 239 was running prior without any zinc)... Deposits won't seal any thing that moves, could help with a crudded up pan or valve cover gasket(that a flatty doesn't have), but not main bearing seals...

I'd use any good conventional 10W-30/40, if there are leaks maybe try high mileage...
 
Johnny2Bad- That was an option I had on the sketchpad initially. I spotted a couple of threads on the HAMB and the Ford Barn that discussed the benefit of using manifold vacuum to promote negative pressure to draw and burn the volatiles and moisture out. Two gentlemen in particular had ingeniously concealed the entire PCV apparatus under the manifold in the valve chest in the V8 valley. They reported excellent results. I like the catch can as an elegantly simple solution...but...I am perhaps a bit of an overengineering tinkerer. The setup also allows me to use the more attractive 59AB manifold on the later flathead eliminating the front oil filler and breather tube hole.
 
Pop_Rivit, great feedback just like I hoped for. You wouldn't believe the debates on MMO on other forums.

I have been working alongside my Dad with flathead V8s,Model A 4's, a tiny flathead Continental 4 cylinder powering a 1939 Ross lift truck (dinosaur fork lift) and my own '51 Chrysler 331 Hemi V8 with 4X2 Stromberg 97's. Grew up in an old timey junkyard...my father always kept it simple, but he did swear by MMO.

I am keeping stock cam and heads, Henry's guys knew best for streetability, Dad already had Fenton cast iron headers and dual exhaust. I am fitting a Mallory dual point distributor and the Offy regular dual with 6V generator in the original position, (the 1090 Offy early style manifold allows this) and sacreligiously use NGK B6L plugs that for me perform great, made in Japan and not China. Thanks again!
 
TFB1-thanks. It is interesting about the raging debates on MMO and zinc/phosphorus, other additives.

A lot of guys argue straight weight oils. I agree with you that a multiweight makes sense for a car in the northeast primarily driven in the warmer months. The flathead oil pump has decent capacity...my target was a 5W-10W/30 depending on sufficient oil pressure at startup.
 
On the farm, we were running vehicle of that vintage, and multigrades disappeared from our use as soon as it was even remotely feasible. Early 1950s and late 1940s equipment was given ordinary 10w-30. You could run a 10w-30 HDEO or Valvoline VR1 in that viscosity, or Quaker State Defy in 10w-30 or 5w-30. Those would be my personal top choices.

And yes, as has been pointed out, 1950s oils were rather low in ZDDP content.
 
We run farm trucks including flatheads on Delo400 15W-40. It's what we have for the diesel stuff and since it's a fleet oil, it sort of goes into everything. No adverse effects that anyone has seen. Been doing this for a at least three decades.

Like above running Rotella 15W-40 and having good results. It's just plain old good oil.

If it gets seriously cold there, maybe drop down to the 10W-30 version. but old engines have been running on HDEO's for like ever ...

Change it twice a year to keep it fresh and loose any accumulated water/moisture. Drive it enough to get hot. Have fun
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Originally Posted By: 1951FORD
TFB1-thanks. It is interesting about the raging debates on MMO and zinc/phosphorus, other additives.

A lot of guys argue straight weight oils. I agree with you that a multiweight makes sense for a car in the northeast primarily driven in the warmer months. The flathead oil pump has decent capacity...my target was a 5W-10W/30 depending on sufficient oil pressure at startup.

Start up oil pressure is almost never a issue when cold, virtually 100% it will be higher than really necessary... What ever the weight oil will be thicker than when hot... For instance when cold(below 60F) 0W-20 will be far thicker than hot 10W-40, or even 20W-50...

Multi-Vis oils make sense anywhere, the "it was designed for 20-20W" doesn't mean a thing, just that a 5 or 10W is thinner when cold than would be 20W... It's still far thicker than optimum... A straight 5W when hot would thin beyond protection limits, being 5W-30 means it only thins down to a 30W when hot...
 
As far as zinc (ZDDP) goes, the HDEO's all have around 800 ppm, or more. That should be plenty for the fairly light spring pressures in that motor
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My first car was a '52 Vic. What a sweet ride. I had a few others until I graduated to OHV.

Had a '49 coupe that was pretty strong. But it got beat by the 265 and 283 Chevy's... So that was the end of Flatties for me, except for work trucks.

Moved up to Y blocks in Ranch Wagons and built some real stout 312's
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Now I'm building BBC's over 500 HP on the street and thinking blowers for a 1,000 on E-85
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Still running HDEO's unless specifically need other oils ...
 
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Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
As far as zinc (ZDDP) goes, the HDEO's all have around 800 ppm, or more. That should be plenty for the fairly light spring pressures in that motor
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Even std SN 5W-20 have around 800ppm zinc(no I'm not recommending this weight oil)... A SN 5/10W-30/40 will be approx same...

These 35+ samples of 5W-20 tested by PQIA averaged 811ppm...

http://www.pqiamerica.com/Feb2014/consolidated5w20ALL.html
 
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
As far as zinc (ZDDP) goes, the HDEO's all have around 800 ppm, or more.

The only HDEOs you should find with such a low phosphorus number would be an E6 lubricant, but it would be reasonable to assume they deal with AW with something else, and I'd probably use an E6 lubricant without hesitation, too.
 
Originally Posted By: Fsharp
No need for MMO, high zinc would be nice for those flat tappets. Companies make oils specifically for old cars like Lucas Hot Rod and Classic oil. I know people like to hate on Lucas products though. Detergents might make old seals leak more by cleaning off deposits but are otherwise a good idea. Some sort of UCL might be good.


PCMO's in 51 had little to no additives and modern formulas have around twice as much ZDDP.
 
Well very good feedback from all, thanks. There is so much misinformation out there. The ZDDP issue right now in the antique and classic community is like the sky is falling. My understanding there has been a reduction in average ZDDP in PCMO, but even the test results based on actual science show another picture. The flathead has relatively low valve spring pressures, and is low revving compared to anything in the PC world these days. The car has 37,000 original miles, this is both good and bad, the car was beautifully stored, but obviously never got driven much in it's history. Runs great.

[img:left]https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hph...amp;oe=56E272DF[/img]
 
I still have two flatheads, with one getting used regularly, for motor oil you really can't beat an HDEO for one of these Fords. I have been running 15w-40 in them for at least 25 years, and before that it was straight 30 wt HDEO. I would be hesitant to run anything thinner that a 40 wt. due to such low oil pressure on these when hot. Mine run a power take off at idle and warm oil pressure idling on any flathead will always require a second look.

I will recommend MMO as a gas additive, along with stabil. It seems to keep the combustion chambers/spark plugs cleaner, but as mentioned mine idle 98% of run time.
 
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