2.4 Toyota & Delvac1 5/40 for winter

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Tired of changing oil here in winter so going with this fill for December thru March. Out of those 120 days I expect to see 20 starts at -10 or below and total mileage will be at least 10k and likely be closer to 14k, I work in SE WI. 4 miles from home 4 days a week then run a 600mi round trip to camp in the UP every weekend.

Along with the OC I put on the new Altimax Artic 235/70/16 (12/32), and of course I religiously go 640/1 TCW-3 juice on the 87 octane fuel. Running a Fram PS4386, this motor has used zero oil at 64,000 miles.

I'll get a Blackstone opinion right before I dump it.

Let'r rip.
 
Too thick for a Toyota IMO; any synthetic or even modern conventional would handle that no problem...

Thicker than necessary oils can hamper VVT actuator performance.
 
I dont think it needs that heavy but I dont think it will hurt it. I would go with a 0w30. Let us know the UOA, id be curious to see the Delvac UOA on this run.
 
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
[...any synthetic or even modern conventional would handle that no problem.
Agreed; no need to go to an HDEO. Any synthetic PCMO that meets spec will easily suffice.
 
Originally Posted By: Drew99GT


Thicker than necessary oils can hamper VVT actuator performance.


I thought the same thing. I would want a 5w-30 synthetic there. I have run HDEO in another vehicle to address ring issues, and the performance difference was noticeable.

Also don't like frequent oil changes since she drives it 30k a year. In our Toyota V6 I use PP or M1 synthetic and robust filters like a factory Denso or Motorcraft FL400S (what is on ours for this winter already) for the 7.5k OCI. I have had to change OCVs but that was due to mileage; having them act up is annoying.
 
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Quote:

any synthetic or even modern conventional would handle that no problem...


I gathered he anticipated a possible 14K interval. With a lot of 4 mile trips.

A stout oil is a good starting point; i just disagree with seeking the refuge of a 40 weight.
 
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Wanted to at least try a 5/40, been running Citgo's .79 cent 5/20 & 5/30 with $2 quaker state filters I get on sale here..Citgo states 'semi synthetic' but no percent statement so no way am I taking that almost triple the mfg's rec here in brutal conditions.
 
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Hi Doug

hope all is well, this is a 2AZ-FE paired with the 4 speed auto transaxle, really enjoying as I pile on the miles.
 
Hi,
dblshock - Yes a UOA will provide relevant OCI info.

It may be a little high in viscosity but that's irrelevant in the scheme of things. If you want to keep on a synthetic HDEO in the future, Delvac LE 5W-30 is a very modern version

Its very hot here - 40C or there about today
 
Originally Posted By: dblshock
Tired of changing oil here in winter so going with this fill for December thru March. Out of those 120 days I expect to see 20 starts at -10 or below and total mileage will be at least 10k and likely be closer to 14k, I work in SE WI. 4 miles from home 4 days a week then run a 600mi round trip to camp in the UP every weekend.

Along with the OC I put on the new Altimax Artic 235/70/16 (12/32), and of course I religiously go 640/1 TCW-3 juice on the 87 octane fuel. Running a Fram PS4386, this motor has used zero oil at 64,000 miles.

I'll get a Blackstone opinion right before I dump it.

Let'r rip.


Originally Posted By: dblshock
Just think this formula was built for punishment.




Is it wrong for me to take the inference that you think other lubes are NOT built for punishment, as if only your newest selection can somehow survive 12k miles and sub-zero temps?

Toyota engines are generally known to last a LONG time when run on their own products (marginal oils and loose filters). But yours somehow needs a PAO HDEO, TCW3, and such?

And why are you running a two stroke marine lube additive in your fuel? Could you point to the page# in your manual, or any other on-road manual, that supports this practice? And how well do you think this is going to help long-term with your emissions equipment?

Your signature line shows you using an inexpensive API, and you're now generally going to double the OCI. Why do you suddenly think you need a thick PAO HDEO? Rather than jumping to conclusions, why not test your current state of lube selection, so that you have a baseline of info? What makes you think the cheaper API oil you've been using to date is not capable of the O/FCI you want to move to? IT is quite likely that your previous oil plan can still provide the protection you need.


What is a PS4386 Fram anyway?
 
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TCW-3 lubes on cold start-ups, lubes the injectors, fuel pump, conrols all cumbustion deposits and after 35,000 straight miles of using it my 2.4 couldnt work or sound better. You should try it.

Citgo's 5W oils are probably good but I'm hoping the Delvac 1 has a better add pkg, thought it to be more of a true synthetic designed for extended OCI's in diesel trailer trucks. I have used it over the years in sleds, ATV's and motorcycles, always had a high value perception of Mobil's flagship oil.

Today I ran 242 mi. back to SE WI. with the new oil fill and new Altimax Atric tires..I had a great day to travel 45F and low wind, speeds to 85 mph, 3:30 minuits. Straight line could not realy feel any difference, turns the new 12/32 felt spongey compared to the 7/32 LTX that were removed. Did some passing on the 80mi. of 2 lane to the I system and the motor/trans were as expected, fuel used was as expected also so no ill effects of the better thicker 5/40 oil film.
 
The 2.4 is a good motor for smaller cars. Bit small for a Highlander. VVT will work fine with the thicker oil.

Castrol Mobil1 Rotella have a 0w40 which might be a better choice and should make it 10k+ miles.

Engine can also fit the ph3614 and bigger ph3600 sized filters.

When not in snow, bump the cold tires to 36psi. Air down to 32 or 30 psi for the traction when needed.

Synth ATF and PSF will keep those working well when cold.
 
Delvac 1 will work fine for the winter, but, what Dave says is worth noting. Watch your input costs. For me, considering I don't like switching lubes all the time, nor do I like chasing sales, I consider what I can get readily, continually, and cheaply. For me, the distributor never runs out, always has an exceptional price, and I can buy a good sized quantity at once, without having to wait for Walmart Canada or Canadian Tire to deem us lowly peasants as worthy of a rollback.
 
Originally Posted By: dblshock
TCW-3 lubes on cold start-ups, lubes the injectors, fuel pump, conrols all cumbustion deposits and after 35,000 straight miles of using it my 2.4 couldnt work or sound better. You should try it.

Citgo's 5W oils are probably good but I'm hoping the Delvac 1 has a better add pkg, thought it to be more of a true synthetic designed for extended OCI's in diesel trailer trucks. I have used it over the years in sleds, ATV's and motorcycles, always had a high value perception of Mobil's flagship oil.

Today I ran 242 mi. back to SE WI. with the new oil fill and new Altimax Atric tires..I had a great day to travel 45F and low wind, speeds to 85 mph, 3:30 minuits. Straight line could not realy feel any difference, turns the new 12/32 felt spongey compared to the 7/32 LTX that were removed. Did some passing on the 80mi. of 2 lane to the I system and the motor/trans were as expected, fuel used was as expected also so no ill effects of the better thicker 5/40 oil film.



So it is your assertion that TCW3 both lubricates and cleans better than other additives, and improves a condition past what "normal" use can offer? It is your position that TCW3 is better than specific products like Techron, etc?

I am going to ask just what proof you have that using TCW3 has any real benefit you can show. There are some informal studies that indicate TCW3 does reduce wear scarring in HFFR testing with DIESEL fuel, but I've never seen anything that translates into real world use as proof in terms of gasoline fuel systems. It's all theoretical. And as much as you're probably going to rely on the anecdotal evidence that you have yet to experience a problem using TCW3, I'm going to point to the bazillions of engines that run multi-hundred-thousand miles without it ...
Further, the use of TCW3 also has risks in additional varnish and stichion, as it will have small amounts of volume that burn incompletely; this adds up over time. TCW3 is a lube for two-stoke marine engines, and it's not known for high detergent value. It is now a few decades old; not the leading edge of performance by any means. It was developed at a time when marine two-strokes were carb'd and not fuel injected. There was never a need for TCW3 to address fuel injection/ fuel pump lubricity issues. There are now standards set for a higher bar that address those issues in the marine world. And none of that has been tested/proven to translate into use into the typical automobile.

I am a fan of having injectors professionally cleaned (removed, disassembled, sonic-cleansed, reman'd and flow tested) every 100k miles. I have personally seen the discoloration of the cleaning fluid that comes from varnish of the long-term use of everyday fuels. Adding TCW3 to this is likely only going to increase the concern for gumming up the injectors. After all, you are introducing an unexpected element into the combustion process that has additional hydrocarbons that must be burned, and probably do so incompletely. I have NEVER seen a gasoline fuel injector seize up due to a lack of lubrication under normal use. I have seen them fail from electronic issues (which no additive can stop) and perform poorly due to deposit formation affecting spray patterns (which TCW3 would probably make worse, not better). IOW - they generally either quit working due to a break in the electric circuit, or gum up at the nozzel tip. They don't wear themselves to a grinding halt. So your assertion that TCW3 helps an injector last longer does not really pan out, and I've never seen any proof in a study that makes this true in a gasoline application.

And what proof do you have that TCW3 "conrols all cumbustion deposits and after 35,000 straight miles of using it my 2.4 couldnt work or sound better." Please provide proof that TCW3 does this. What personal data do you have, or studies can you point to, that would be relevant to the use of TCW3 in on-road automotive gasoline-fueled engines. Do you know something that the rest of the entire industry does not? Perhaps you have detailed, analytical photos of the inside of your combustion chamber, pistons with rings removed so we can see the lands, and the backs of your valves? And those can be contrasted to other vehicles you've run in identical situations, showing how they have less "control" over deposits by not using TCW3?


I don't disagree that you have a "high value perception" of Mobil 1 Delvac; that's obvious. And your bias clearly extends to TCW3. I agree they are great products. But I disagree that you've done anything to actually prove your application needs or benefits from them. All I see from your statements are subjective; "the better thicker 5/40 oil film"? How was your recent experience driving "better" from "thicker" oil? Can you please show the specific information that proves that "thicker" film made you pass other vehicles "better", and how do you define "better" in terms of passing? And how did you measure that, in contrast to your former use of other lubes? And what controls were in place for these tests? Your engine either specs a 5w-20 or 0w-20 I suspect. How does using a 5w-40 make it "better" in terms of power production for passing? It is proven beyond any reasonable doubt that thicker lubes do cause more parasitic drag; that is the whole purpose in using thinner lubes for better fuel economy. How is using a thicker lube making it "better" in terms of passing? While I agree that the parasitic loss is probably imperceptible, that same imperceptibility would work against your claim of benefit. So why bring it up other than a bias of perception?


Again - why not create a basis for study, if you really want to PROVE your position has merit? Why not take some UOAs, under this current condition, and compare/contrast them to normal macro data? If you think the PAO and TCW3 are undeniably "better", then prove it against other situations. And, can you show that this approach you take is worth the investment? Are you getting 3x less wear or 3x longer OCI, relative to what a PCMO can provide? Until you run a PCMO out far enough to see a shift in wear rates, you have no idea whatsoever what baseline exists for comparative purposes. If you believe that TCW3 improves the wear rates in the injectors, pump and engine, and also controls deposit formation better than the alternatives, by all means, PROVE IT please. I don't want to hear about your assumptions and theory; show me the data that supports your proof. Maybe you've discovered something that the rest of us are utterly unaware of ... ???
 
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Just look at the combustion process and tell us all again how adding lubricity couldn't benifit moving metal parts, and of course Delvac 1, Mobil Oils flagship product is more effective than .79 cent Citgo API.

I rely on something very effective you cannot understand...common sense.
 
Nope.
You rely on mythology and rhetoric.


As typical of most BITOGers, you think if something is good, then more of it must, without question, be "better". Thicker is better. More lube is better. Etc ...
Well, if that is true, using your mantra, then more must always be better. Why not run a 10w-60? Why not a PAG or GTL? Why not run the TCW3 at 25:1? If your "common sense" is that more is always better, then more of more must be better than better, right? And you focus on inputs, rather than results. Inputs are only predictors; results are the truth about what actually happens. I'll take UOA data over the hype on a bottle or website any day.


I was asking if you have established any basis in UOA wear-rates for your previous plan; clearly you have not or you'd have posted them by now. I was asking if you are going to compare/contrast actual results relative to macro market data; obviously you have no intention of doing that, either. In short, you have no studies to point to that back up your "common sense", nor do you have any plans to develop data that would support your position.

There's nothing wrong with what you want to do with your vehicle; no one is going to take that away from you. You have the right to do as you see fit with your money and assets.

But you are mistaken if you think your "common sense" is anything but the common application of the "more is better" mentality, with no proof.

In a non-binding, unofficial lubricity effort at a Diesel website, there was an experiment done on the lubricity of several choices of fuel conditioners. TCW3 was tried, and it showed only a moderate improvement in the HFRR rig. HOWEVER ...
a) it was run at 200:1; not the 640:1 you are doing (you are more than three times thinner)
b) it was run with diesel fuel, not gasoline, so the relevancy of translation must be questioned
c) there is no study data I know of that exhibits HFRR data translates directly into a correlation in wear data in injectors; it is an implication and is not proven, however if someone knows of an SAE study that would support this, I'd be all ears, but at this point I know of no study whatsoever showing how TCW3 affects gasoline fuel injector wear, pro or con.
d) none of this addresses the potential long-term effects of the TCW3 on emissions equipment; saving your engine and trashing your cats may not be as fiscally sound as you first think. Again, no study I am aware of exists.

Additionally, I believe it was in the 1960s that Yamaha proved that the "best" ratio of two-stroke lube was 25:1, however that was in two-stroke twin cylinder racing applications and it was strictly looking to the goal of power production; all other aspects such as cost, smoke, etc were ignored. They discovered that such a rich lube ratio sealed the rings best; more or less lube degraded the power production. So if your "more is better" philosophy is really to be believed, then you should at least be adding a lot more oil to the gas you use. However, it should be noted that your four-stroke engine, with modern fuel injection and O2 sensors and Cat converters may not react favorably to such a rich ratio. But hey, "common sense" states more is better, right? Maybe you can make back some of the lost power when using the 40 grade, by dumping in more TCW3 to seal up the ring pack like Yamaha did ....





And just so I don't, too, fall into the "blame, bash and run" camp, I'll be specific here.
You can do this a bit backwards; you can base after the fact.

- run your little experiment as eximplified at this moment; use the Delvac 1 and TCW3 for your planned OCI. Run some UOAs perhaps at 5k and 10k miles. Use any brand/grade filter you choose.
- next season go back to the "cheapest API" (from your signature), drop the TCW3, and again run 5k and 10k mile UOAs. Use the same replacement brand/grade filter.
- try to keep as many variable as minor as possible (idle time, typical trips, etc)
- finally, compare/contrast your data to macro market data


If your common sense plan is superior, then you should be able to demonstrably show a shift outside of statistically significant norms. This is what I mean when I say "prove" something, not blabber about it. Either show SAE studies that meaningfully support your position, or prove it via testing at home that all can see. I often do both.

I will offer this ...
You run your "more is better" plan, and submit your UOAs to Blackstone. I'll contact Ryan and work with him to get the data published; that way both you, I and all will see the true data. Then when you run your less-expensive products, do the same.

I am willing to put my money where my mouth is. If your plan is statistically significant in that it provides performance outside "normal" wear-data responses, I'll pay Blackstone and they can refund your money for the UOAs. If not, all you have to do is enjoy the revelation that more is not always better, and that "common sense" is often not what it seems.

Up for the challenge?
 
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I'm sure with the Delvac 1, Fram Ultra oil filter, Toyota air filter, and TCW-3 juiced fuel the UOA will be outstanding at 10k here in the frozen abyss..lets see where the mileage is at midpoint 2/4/16.

I have an extractor will contact Blackstone for containers, we can work out payment details as this progresses I'm not overly concerned with that, however, if it comes back with ultra low wear toward the end say 4/4/16, you must publicly admit on this thread you have been an over the top skeptic and a needless (edit-mod).
 
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