ZDDP based VS ashless hydraulic oil

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miniac007

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Hi All,

I just bought a chinese wheel loader for my farm who ask for ISO 46 "normal" ZDDP based hydraulic oil.

But I leave in Sweden and I would like to put in Arctic oil like Q8 Hindemith LT:
http://www.q8oils.co.uk/downloads_temp/e3327415-5851-48f2-9b03-cc427cd60d4b.PDF

But all arctic oil are ashless now, so I wonder if there will be a problem with those ashless oil with the soft steel used in China...

Will mild chinese steel suffer with those ashless oil ?

Thank you !
 
Well, I am more preoccupied by the real curve at low temperatures.

Especially, Eaton gives for example the "good" values of viscosity for a gear pump:

Mini: 6 cst
Optimum: 10-40
Max: 2150

And the Artctic oil is the only oil which is under 2150 at -30°C, and it has the optimum viscosity between 30°C to 100°C.

So it seems this is the best oil concerning viscosity... But ashless...

151202091221304011.jpg
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule


Many low or non-ZDDP hydraulic oils contain organic AW chemistry in lieu of ZDDP's.


The only thing I can see on the MSDS is :

Reaction products of bis(4-methylpentan-2-yl)dithiophosphoric acid with phosphorus oxide, propylene oxide andamines, C12-14-alkyl
(branched)

I don't know if it is that, and how efficient it is...
 
Originally Posted By: miniac007
But all arctic oil are ashless now, so I wonder if there will be a problem with those ashless oil with the soft steel used in China...

Will mild chinese steel suffer with those ashless oil ?



Short answer : No problem.

In fact the ashless oils offer far superior operating properties in your hydraulic systems , as compared against a non-ashless oils.

Besides, it's good for the environments.



Originally Posted By: miniac007
Well, I am more preoccupied by the real curve at low temperatures.

Especially, Eaton gives for example the "good" values of viscosity for a gear pump:

Mini: 6 cst
Optimum: 10-40
Max: 2150

And the Artctic oil is the only oil which is under 2150 at -30°C, and it has the optimum viscosity between 30°C to 100°C.

So it seems this is the best oil concerning viscosity... But ashless...

151202091221304011.jpg




+1

This Q8 ISO 32 is 'The' oil for your harsh ambients.

Being ashless ? ...... this is non-issue in your circumstances.

Btw Miniac, is Eaton pump being installed in your China machine , just curious ?
 
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Quote:
Reaction products of bis(4-methylpentan-2-yl)dithiophosphoric acid with phosphorus oxide, propylene oxide andamines, C12-14-alkyl


That is an excellent ashless anti-wear/anti-oxidant component.

Looks like a good potential replacement.
 
Thank you very much for your answers MolaKule and zeng !

Quote:
Btw Miniac, is Eaton pump being installed in your China machine , just curious ?


No, unfortunately, this is a pure chinese CBG2050, but I have no data about it for the min and max viscosity, so I used the Eaton's ones...

I just have: Working oil viscosity: 20~40 mm²/s, same as Eaton data, so I assumed Min and Max should be quite the same


Btw, can I use this Arctic oil in the powershift transmission, or is it better to stay with the 5w30 UTTO (UTF) which is GL-4 ?
 
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Originally Posted By: miniac007
Hi All,

I just bought a chinese wheel loader for my farm who ask for ISO 46 "normal" ZDDP based hydraulic oil.

But I leave in Sweden and I would like to put in Arctic oil like Q8 Hindemith LT:
http://www.q8oils.co.uk/downloads_temp/e3327415-5851-48f2-9b03-cc427cd60d4b.PDF

But all arctic oil are ashless now, so I wonder if there will be a problem with those ashless oil with the soft steel used in China...

Will mild chinese steel suffer with those ashless oil ?

Thank you !


They are asking for a conventional antiwear hyd oil - DIN 51524 Part 3 HLP is the standard. Ashless or not if it meets the spec you can use it.

The Q8 product meets the spec and its also a high VI version (HVLP) which is desirable in extreme weather.
 
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Originally Posted By: miniac007
Thank you very much for your answers MolaKule and zeng !

Quote:
Btw Miniac, is Eaton pump being installed in your China machine , just curious ?


No, unfortunately, this is a pure chinese CBG2050, but I have no data about it for the min and max viscosity, so I used the Eaton's ones...

I just have: Working oil viscosity: 20~40 mm²/s, same as Eaton data, so I assumed Min and Max should be quite the same



The bold is where you need to pay heed.
I would assume the spec'ed 20~40 mm²/s as optimum operating viscosity, and hazard a guess of its minimum allowable viscosity as 13~16 mm²/s.
The Q8's operating viscosity would drop to 20 mm²/s at about 60*C, above which you may loose gear pump longevity protection.


Originally Posted By: miniac007
Btw, can I use this Arctic oil in the powershift transmission, or is it better to stay with the 5w30 UTTO (UTF) which is GL-4 ?


I would feel the Q8 is not suitable for the powershift transmission. Reasons being:

a )Q8 lacks essential additives like GL4 Antiwear/ EP of Sulfur and Phosphorous origins for the gearings/bearings and it also lacks friction modifier additives for wet clutches as compared against a typical UTTO;and

b )its operating viscosity is far weaker than Donax/Titan UTTO 5W30 oils offering inferior powershift protection.
 
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Originally Posted By: supercity

They are asking for a conventional antiwear hyd oil - DIN 51524 Part 3 HLP is the standard. Ashless or not if it meets the spec you can use it.

The Q8 product meets the spec and its also a high VI version (HVLP) which is desirable in extreme weather.



Right, we know what the FL has speced.

The problem is this guy farms in Sweden and needs a good subzero hydraulic oil.
 
Thank you Zend, molakule and supercity

Originally Posted By: zeng

I would assume the spec'ed 20~40 mm²/s as optimum operating viscosity, and hazard a guess of its minimum allowable viscosity as 13~16 mm²/s.
The Q8's operating viscosity would drop to 20 mm²/s at about 60*C, above which you may loose gear pump longevity protection.


Considering the upper side over 60°C, the values for both a Q8 Artctic, HVLP46 or 5w30 UTTO are quite the same, around 20 cst. So there will be no change choosing any of them.

The only difference is on the down size, and only the Q8 performs well here.

I have really no idea of the oil temperature that will be reached in summer during work, so I don't know if there will be a problem here...

Anyway, I have a spare pump, only 80$ in China...

Quote:

I would feel the Q8 is not suitable for the powershift transmission.


Here is the plan:

- Engine: Addinol Commercial E7 5w40 CI-4/SL which can go in all my cars, truck and tractors, so universal.

ACEA E7 / E5 / E3
API CI-4 Plus / CI-4 / CH-4 / CG-4 / CF-4 / SL / SJ
MAN M 3275-1
MB-Freigabe 228.3
Volvo VDS-3
Renault RLD / RLD2
MTU Ölkategorie 2
MACK EO-N / EO-M Plus
Cummins CES 20077 / 76
Caterpillar ECF-2 / ECF-1-a
Deutz DQC III-10

Vis 100°C mm²/s 13,8 ASTM D 704
VI 174 DIN ISO 2909
Pumpfähigkeit °C bis -35 ASTM D 4684
Flammpunkt COC °C min. 225 DIN EN 2592
Pourpoint °C max. -43 ASTM D 7346
TBN mg KOH / g 9,4 DIN ISO 3771


- Powershift: Addinol UTTO Plus 5w30 (which is also the same for my tractors)

John Deere JDM J 20D (inkl. LD303, J14B/C, J20A-C)
Steyr BR 80 Getriebe / Transaxle / Hydraulik
Massey Ferguson M-1110 / 1127 / 1129 / 1141 / 1143 / 1145
Volvo WB 101
TCM Stapler
Allison C4 (C2, C3)
Caterpillar TO-2
Renk-Doromant
Kubota Super UDT
Komatsu
DIN 51524-2 (HLPD, HM)
DIN 51524-3 (HVLPD, HV)
Denison HF-2, HF-1, HF-0 (außer Demulgiervermögen)
API GL-4

Vis 40 °C mm²/s 50 ASTM D 7042
Vis 100 °C mm²/s 9,9
Viskositätsindex 183 DIN ISO 2909
Flammpunkt COC °C min. 230 DIN EN ISO 2592
Pourpoint °C max. -47 ASTM D 7346


- Axles: Addinol GH 75w90 GL5 (which is also the same for my tractors)

API GL-4 / GL-5
MIL-L-2105 D
VW 501 50 (G 50)
ZF TE-ML 07A, 08

Vis 100°C / mm²/s / 15,0 / ASTM D 7042
Viskositätsindex / / 178 / DIN ISO 2909
Scheinbare Viskosität bei -40°C / mPa*s / 150.000 / DIN 51398
Flammpunkt COC / °C / 215 / DIN EN 2592
Pourpoint / °C / -45 / ASTM D7346


- Hydraulic: Q8 Hindemith LT (which can go also in my tractors hydraulics)

http://www.q8oils.co.uk/downloads_temp/e3327415-5851-48f2-9b03-cc427cd60d4b.PDF



What do you think about it ?
 
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Your engine would love the the engine oil with E7 and CI-4 above.
Miniac ,you surely know the oil stuffs very well, and are clearly on top of the situations.
happy2.gif


However, just like an Eaton pump can handle well a prolonged operating viscosity of 6~10 mm²/s (being above its minimum); but this China pump may breakdown prematurely under prolonged operating viscosity of say, below 10~13 mm²/s (being below its minimum, if I'd guessed it right).

The above scenario would apply in your selection of Addinol GH 75w90 differential oil (of a low low KV@40*C of 89.2 mm²/s).... in a China made differential, which I would hazard a guess requiring a higher value of 'minimum operating viscosity' similar to its pump counterpart.

Just give a thought to this potential scenario .... if you may.
blush.gif
 
Thank you zeng,

My problem is that this loader will not earn money like a mining or construction machine, it will just cost money to simplify my life, in winter with snow and hay handling, and in summer for general work, manure, road maintenance and handling for only 100/200 hours/year, and mainly for short run periods...

So it must be operated at minimal cost, and it is also why I bought chinese and not Cat or Volvo... Total cost with delivery at my farm and import fees, is only 8000$ for 1.8 tons load and Tiers IIIA engine... (+25% VAT)

I need 100 litres for hydraulic. If I use Q8, it is 500$ for several years. If I use VG32 in winter and VG46 in summer, with draining twice a year, it is 500$ by year...

Compared to the 80$ of the hydraulic pump...

In winter the temperatures reach -30°C/-22°F (mean -20°C/-4°F) and in summer +30°C/+86°F (mean +20°C/+68°F), so I try to find the less worse oils for this large gap of temperatures to let them in for 3 to 5 years without draining...

I think I will put a thermometer in the hydraulic tank to manage the temperature and see what happen when working.


For the axles, the manual ask for GL-5, 80w-90 from -20°C/+40°C and 75w-90 to -40°C... And looking at the 80w-90 datasheets, their pourpoint is around -30° which is limit...

I wonder if I could use the UTTO 5w-30 in axles too, but it is only GL-4 and quite fluid, 75w-80... A 10w TO-4 oil will have also a quite same viscosity at low temp as a 75w-90, but also not GL-5, equivalent to GL-4 also I think, and will be very fluid at high temp...

I am open to any suggestions...
 
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I have no knowledge of the fluids you have mentioned, but I did notice when you listed the approvals one of the first specs mentioned is Deere.
Their hydraulic fluid is very highly regarded along with all of their other offerings and if its available locally to you thats my recommendation.
 
Originally Posted By: roadrunner1
I have no knowledge of the fluids you have mentioned, but I did notice when you listed the approvals one of the first specs mentioned is Deere.
Their hydraulic fluid is very highly regarded along with all of their other offerings and if its available locally to you thats my recommendation.


The near equivalent for the Q8 would be the Hydrau™ XR, but a quick search on internet didn't give me any local answer neither for price nor availability ...

https://jdparts.deere.com/partsmkt/document/english/featbene/DKE10116_Hydrau_XR_FNL_Web.pdf
 
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Sorry, I don't mean a China-made machine is a no go ........ In fact, it's generally value for money.

What I meant was, in view of the scenario of a China-made machine requiring 'much higher gear oil operating viscosity' than a typically 'better quality but a lot more pricier' western-made Volvo/Cat product for similar level of differential components protection, you should consider using a GL5 differential gear oil that's thicker than the selected Addinol 75W90 (whose KV@40*C is at a very low 89.2 cSt).

By thicker, I mean a GL5 gear oil with a KV@40*C values of much more higher than 89.2 cSt.

In your circumstances,I would think that you should consider :

a )a mineral GL5 of 80W90 (AGMA gear lubes 4EP/ ISO 150 of KV@40*C of 135-165 cSt) , over thinner gear oils ,such as ,

b1)a synthetic GL5 80W90 of typically KV@40*C of 120 cSt; or

b2)a synthetic GL5 75W90 (AGMA gear lubes 3EP / ISO 100 of KV@40*C of 90-110 cSt) as is the case with your selection of Addinnol 75W90.

Hope I'm not adding confusion to you.
blush.gif



Note: a 80W90 mineral should be ok at -26*C.
 
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Originally Posted By: zeng
Sorry, I don't mean a China-made machine is a no go ........ In fact, it's generally value for money.


I agree, for the money, it is good. Honestly, it is simple but well designed, and the "bad" things I have noticed on it are just assembly chains problems caused by bad management of workers and lack of quality control at the end of the chain. No design problems.


Quote:
What I meant was, in view of the scenario of a China-made machine requiring 'much higher gear oil operating viscosity' than a typically 'better quality but a lot more pricier'


OK; I understand

What do you think should be the maximum viscosity value at -20/-30 ?
 
Originally Posted By: miniac007
What do you think should be the maximum viscosity value at -20/-30 ?


For a circulating system with oil pump, one would refer to API Brookfield viscosity ratings of maximum 150,000 mPa.s (cP) at temperatures of :
a )at -40*C for a 75Wxx;
b )at -26*C for a 80Wxx; and
c )at -12*C for a 85Wxx gear oils.

However,as most differential casings lubrication systems are of oil-bath type , one may also refer to gear oil pour points as a limiting factor.

This mineral Castrol Axle EPX 80W90 would be fine at -30*C .....http://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/1425EFE45BBA5B5880257837006A76DB/$File/BPXE-8E5P88_0.pdf

Note: This Castrol would be very shear-stable , compared to most synthetics.
 
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Thank you zeng

Here, http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/1014/low-temperature-viscosity-limits, I have a viscosity limit of 50 000 cst

articles_200703_Pg38.gif


The second point is the pourpoint. The 80w90 have a -27/-30° pourpour which I think could be borderline... That is why I would prefer a 75W with lower pourpoint.

This is the Eaton/Dana axle recommendations:

151206045451109334.jpg


So the solution should be a 75w140 ? What do you think about it ?

http://www.q8oils.co.uk/downloads_temp/b34386a9-341f-417b-9e22-c3c34016f24c.PDF

or

http://www.rgracing-oils.co.uk/TDS/Trans/Syntrax Limited Slip 75W-140.pdf

But the price rise from 5€/liter to 10€/liter ...

In the 5€ range, I can have 100 cst at 40°C with this one:

Pennasol 75w-90 GL-5

So I wonder if it worth switching to a 75w140 for the double of the price...
 
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