Oil Viscosity Question

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Come on, guys, -10 F is a walk in the park for any 10W-30. Just look at the oil-recommendation charts by OEMs or MRV and CCS data. This is especially so for PYB 10W-30, which has a quality base oil. You can run it even at -25 F. No paint thinner is needed.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Come on, guys, -10 F is a walk in the park for any 10W-30. Just look at the oil-recommendation charts by OEMs or MRV and CCS data. This is especially so for PYB 10W-30, which has a quality base oil. You can run it even at -25 F. No paint thinner is needed.


I agree. I just can't fathom the idea of putting a stray thinner into a fully developed motor oil. I'd be scared to death to pour anything like that into an engine.
 
Overthinking everything.

The oil is fine, without thinners. Don't stress or try to play chemist. Just drive on and do a normal change when the 3000 mile point arrives.

Don't try to "fix" what ain't broke!
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Come on, guys, -10 F is a walk in the park for any 10W-30. Just look at the oil-recommendation charts by OEMs or MRV and CCS data. This is especially so for PYB 10W-30, which has a quality base oil. You can run it even at -25 F. No paint thinner is needed.


You'd be safe on MRV (-22F) but getting close on CCS (-13F). But you are right, it would be well within the acceptable range for the oil's W-rating.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Even better, run 0W-40 for added protection.

That's ridiculous.
The 0W-40 will likely still be heavier on start-up at these temp's vs a typical synthetic 5W-30 and reduced oil flow 100% of the time otherwise.
So where is "added protection" unless a 40 grade oil was specified? None.


http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3931086/BMW_Twin_Power_10W-60,_5300mi,#Post3931086
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

The 0W-40 will likely still be heavier on start-up at these temp's vs a typical synthetic 5W-30


At -23C? (-10F) No. The crossover will be somewhere around -15C (5F)

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
and reduced oil flow 100% of the time otherwise.


LOL!!! He doesn't even list his application and you toss this out there like it is some universal factoid. Classic.

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
So where is "added protection" unless a 40 grade oil was specified? None.


Higher levels of AW additives, but those are probably insignificant if the OP's application just calls for a regular oil (which I would assume it does based on his use of 10w-30).

Your fear mongering of the claimed pitfalls of heavier oils is just as ridiculous as Gokan's overzealous peddling of M1 0w-40.

What fearmongering?
I've simply countered the oft sited claim that using a heavier oil grade than specified provides "greater protection" and it doesn't.
But nice try!
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

What fearmongering?


Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

The engine will start with the 10W-30, just keep the rev's as low as possible, very gradually warming up the engine and you'll be fine.

But next oil change go with a 5W-30.


Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

The 0W-40 will likely still be heavier on start-up at these temp's vs a typical synthetic 5W-30 and reduced oil flow 100% of the time otherwise.


Both of the above quotes from this thread put forth an air of potential dire consequences due to overly heavy oil selection. In the 2nd example you even chose to fabricate a "fact" to support this agenda given that you didn't even know the application at that point but still thought it fit to make an absolute statement about oil flow.

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I've simply countered the oft sited claim that using a heavier oil grade than specified provides "greater protection" and it doesn't.


No, you stepped in to peddle your ultra thin oil agenda under the guise of advice and did so using hyperbole and make believe in an effort to add dramatic effect. In this way you could perpetuate your own mythology and claim it was to counter some "cited" anecdote when the reality was you didn't even know the application and subsequently had no idea what the grade specified was in the first place.

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
But nice try!


Right back at ya!
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
and reduced oil flow 100% of the time otherwise.


You know that the bearings only take what they need from the pressurised galleries (or should, I've shown you enough times)...

Flow doesn't lubricate.


Funnily enough, in your drive to reduce OP to below the relief setting, you are actually reducing flow to places where flow actually matters, like piston cooling jets and the like.

How foolish indeed it is to claim "flow doesn't lubricate".

When using a heavier oil the main bearings and big end journals may be full of oil but less lubricant is being flung out of the big end journals up onto the cylinder walls. During a cold start the reduced oil supply will inhibit proper lubrication a some rpm level. Of course if the oil is so heavy that the oil pump relief valve is open less lubricate is flowing through the entire engine including through the piston cooling jets consequently less oil is also lubricating conrod small end.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

No, you stepped in to peddle your ultra thin oil agenda...

Really?
So you now consider the 5W-30 I recommended in this tread to be "ultra thin"!
Now I've heard everything.

Again, nice try.
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
How foolish indeed it is to claim "flow doesn't lubricate".

When using a heavier oil the main bearings and big end journals may be full of oil but less lubricant is being flung out of the big end journals up onto the cylinder walls. During a cold start the reduced oil supply will inhibit proper lubrication a some rpm level. Of course if the oil is so heavy that the oil pump relief valve is open less lubricate is flowing through the entire engine including through the piston cooling jets consequently less oil is also lubricating conrod small end.


CATERHAM, in one post, you've summed up your knowledge of thermodynamics...near zero, but you do have lots of posites and feels, albeit misguided.

Firstly, the flow through piston cooling jets is pressure/density controlled...maximum oil pressure, maximum flow. Simple as that.

It's your chase for the viscosity that provides minimum manufacturer's oil pressure that will reduce such flow.

It's the reason why heavy duty engine designers are putting on bigger oil pumps (more time in relief) to guarantee cooling flow.

Look up my linked papers on pistons and lubrication...there is plenty of oil there, and plenty of oil during warmup. And due to temperature/viscosity, that oil is providing greater film thicknesses than at the hot stage.

http://www.sae.org/events/pfs/presentations/2005spikes.pdf

Check out slide 14...the pin on disk is said to be representative of top ring dynamics, and clearly, colder thick oil is doing a better job at keeping parts separated.

As per my warmup white paper, and discussions that I had with Castrol engineers, the part as the oil thins, and before the additives are active is the major wear producing part of the equation.

Funny, if you and AEHaas got your perfect oil with zero viscosity change from freezing to 150C, you would need a whole new range of additives, functional at every temperaure or wear would be cosniderably above current.

Se Solarent's discussion of the other day...with boundary becomeing more common (which you've refuted in the past), additives are going to provide the wear protection of the future.

(You still owe us the comprehensive list of all those failed engines that you've personally witnessed at the track failing due to thick oil...mentioning them has been part of your scaremongering schtick, but you never come up with the detail).
 
I can think of an example of that.
Light duty diesel pick up trucks have far more oil pump than they need to maintain oil pressure sufficient to supply the bearings, no matter the grade of engine oil.
Who wants to step up to the plate and run SAE10W in their 6.7 Cummins or 6.6 Duramax?
With 25 psi oil pressure instead of 70 psi at 3,000 rpm, what will melt first? The bearings or pistons?
 
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL

No, you stepped in to peddle your ultra thin oil agenda...

Really?
So you now consider the 5W-30 I recommended in this tread to be "ultra thin"!
Now I've heard everything.

Again, nice try.


The fact that this was the only part of my post you've decided to pick on speaks volumes. You have an agenda. You've been called on it more times than I can count. Your tactic when that happens is to divert and deflect, particularly when you've been caught without your clothes on.

We can go 'round and round here as many times as you want. Continuing to say "nice try" as if it magically eliminates the counter points doesn't change anything, it just makes you look foolish.

Had you simply asked if the application called for an xW-30 (as the application was still unknown, which I've already mentioned) and noted that if it did, that you'd recommend a 5w-30, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. But you are incapable of just making a recommendation like that without injecting some sort of ridiculous hyperbole or alluding to some semi-dire issue that may be in play due to an oil selection that you would consider antiquated, despite being well within the safe operating range for its winter rating.

It is your conflation of reality and ideology that leads to statements that read as so ridiculous that it completely negates anything else you've contributed, even if the rest of it may be spot-on. Your statement about the 0w-40, presented as fact, despite having zero knowledge about what it was going into is a perfect example of that.
 
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