HVAC Condenser Questions (Ruud UPKA-031JAZ)

[DuckRyder]

This is a RUUD Heat Pump. It was manufactured 04/99 (probably on 04/01/99 is my guess

).

It is the downstairs unit. The original upstairs unit was nearly identical except for the graphic above the fan motor and the absence of the red reset button near the line set exit on the condenser assembly. The upstairs unit has been replaced.

That button is the beginning of the question: It has to be pushed frequently. Sometimes it will go months some times you might have to push it a few times day. Our AC guy says basically "they all do that".

Up until today nothing has ever happened when the button was pushed except that the fan started running and the unit started working. Today I pushed it and the unit buzzed but the fan did not run. I pulled the lockout and checked that the motor seems to turn freely without noise or indications of failed bearings. Did a little google and found the start capacitor is a common problem.

I could not see the identification on the capacitor, so I removed it to read the label (370V, 35.0/3.0) round. After I put it back in the unit ran for a while. When it runs it sounds completely normal.

Questions:

• Does this sound like a bad start cap?
• Would a bad start cap trip the reset button?
• Any other ideas to fix the frequent reset?

Thank you in advance for any thoughts.

 

[sleddriver]

Yes, it does. If it's the original (from 99), it's capacitance has probably dropped enough to no longer be an aid to starting your fan motor. When this happens, the motor pulls excessive current, triping the reset.

You can get these from WW Grainger or from an electrical supply house or electric motor rebuilder. I prefer the GE motor caps sold by a local motor rebuilder.

While you're at it, you might want to replace ALL the caps on both indoor & outdoor units to keep your motors (and your bills) happy!

 

[coolbird101]

That is a manual reset high pressure switch that is tripping, either the run capacitor for the fan motor has failed or is weak, or your fan motor needs to be replaced. NO, they don't all do that, that tripping is a indication of a problem.
I would start with the run capacitor, the 3uf part of the dual capacitor you have, is for the fan motor.

 

[DuckRyder]

Thanks Guys,

I ordered a GE Capacitor (Genteq 97F9472BZ2 - 35 + 3 uf MFD 370 Volt VAC Genteq® Replacement Round Dual Run Capacitor) to replace the existing AmRad (with RHEEM # 43-23204-04). I'm pretty sure it is the original.

I may go to Grainger tomorrow though and see if I can pick one up since it has just gotten cold (or at least what passes for cold here). I don't believe we have any supply stores that would carry it other than Grainger, unless maybe McMaster Carr carries them...

I really didn't think it should do that but it had been more infrequent in the past and I never saw the fan fail to start before... so when that happened this morning I was like "That - I can work with"... over perhaps the last year the reset has gotten more frequent.

The other unit was replaced completely when the compressor failed and the estimate to replace it was about 1/3 of a new unit...

 

[Tones]

Home depot even sells these online and maybe in stores. You can also Google HVAC supply stores. Sometimes when the capacitor is going bad, the unit will make a rythmic pulsing or surging sound while it is running, but it is not always easy to tell. If the motor is bad, it is recommended the capacitor be replaced too, so it is easy to start there. If you have some oil ports on the motor, it helps to squirt a little oil in there also which can extend the life.

 

[sleddriver]

I prefer the GE caps because they were made in the US. Later GE moved the equipment to Mexico instead of China. The local commercial motor rebuilder ONLY stocks those caps. Grainger sells Dayton caps, which to my knowledge, are all now made in China. Not sure of their reliability, but its a quick search.

I didn't recommend a HVAC supply store because many won't sell retail, charge a lot when they do, and don't want "the public" coming in asking questions. A few locally to me are rather hostile about it and post large signs outside. YMMV.....

 

[DuckRyder]

I picked up a Dayton cap at Grainger this morning and put it in, so far so good. The Dayton cap is made in china and is not very impressive looking compared to the old one from a build quality standpoint. It was also pretty close to double what the GE was from Amazon, but they had it and I needed it. (I gave up even trying to keep the unit running yesterday and just turned the upstairs unit up)

I'm going to leave the GE on order.

 

[sleddriver]

Good to hear that fixed your problem. Living in a warm, humid area without A/C is no fun, unless you enjoy warm, humid climates with no A/C. Not me.

Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[DuckRyder]

Well, that did not last long...

Guess I'm on the search for a motor tomorrow.

I took a picture of the motor label the other day but can't read it, I'll have to pull it back apart tomorrow. ID tag says its a 1/6hp motor and I do recall it being a GE Motor.

 

[sleddriver]

Bummer...been there with that. I think I used a Dayton replacement from Grainger when the condensor fan motor on my 1990 unit finally went Tango Uniform.

If I recall, the bushings had dried up so much (as the motor was original), that it caused additional strain & heat on the motor, it opened the thermal fuse inside the windings. I remember it was much harder to turn vs. the new one.

 

[DuckRyder]

I ordered a replacement motor from North American HVAC. This is supposed to be an OEM replacement designed to work in these old units. It states that it replaces the part number on my motor. It is 1/5 HP. The pictures show "protech" on the label vs the GE original.

We will see how this goes, after that the defrost board is about the only thing that won't be new electrically...

This motor has an odd mounting arrangement so I figured best to go with OEM from a HVAC supplier...

 

[Tones]

Well, if it is a universal replacement it will have a lot more wires than the OE motor. It will be intimidating but read through the literature and it is not hard to figure out. I have had success with Protech stuff in the past. I hope it goes well for you.

 

[DuckRyder]

Interim update:

Good thing I did not wait on the GE cap, because it has been lost in USPS Miami since like the 23rd.

Got the motor, it is a 5 wire and I am pretty sure I have it connected correctly, the wiring diagram is not exactly what I would call explicit (its like a 1/4 sheet with some crude line drawings).

The old motor had a lot of end play compared to the new one and there is a tight spot at a certain spot in that end play. So I'm fairly certain that this will be a fix.

The fan blade is not coming off the old motor ... I thought about ordering one with the motor but didn't figure it would be that big of a deal...

When the new fan blade arrives (tues) we will see how this works out.

Fortunately it has been and is supposed to remain warm for a few days.

 

[spackard]

Use something like Sensible Products UP-1 to pull the fan.

 

[sleddriver]

I recall mine required a good soak and a lot of convincing to remove it from the motor shaft. After all, it'd been on there about 20yrs. I may have even used a gear puller.

Sounds like your motor was due! Good luck with it.

 

[DuckRyder]

Originally Posted By: spackard
Use something like Sensible Products UP-1 to pull the fan.


Originally Posted By: sleddriver
I recall mine required a good soak and a lot of convincing to remove it from the motor shaft. After all, it'd been on there about 20yrs. I may have even used a gear puller.

Sounds like your motor was due! Good luck with it.


I probably should have watched some you tube on removing the blades, it might have come off with some pre-removal rust removing, but it did not look that rusty and I wasn't expecting it to be that tight. A ball joint puller and PB Blaster didn't work either - Oh well hindsight is 20/20 and all.

Now - GRRRR

I think the new motor is bad. Followed instructions and NA HVAC youtube:



The original motor is a 3 wire.

All wired up as instructed - I tried the black both on the control board as original and on the contractor as shown (this just bypasses the fan relay on the control board). Yellow and brown together, red on common and purple on fan terminal of CAP.

Nothing, nada , zip zero... not even a peep from the motor....

Why can't anything be simple...

 

[DBMaster]

Gear puller is a great idea. Our parts stores sell a lot of fan blades. I asked why and was told that the blades will often crack or the fan may become imbalanced. When you replace the motor watch the blade for wobble. It can cause premature failure of the new motor.

 

[DuckRyder]

I believe I've located a GE motor, using the GE number on the old motor.

The fan would be very hard to pull using a conventional puller. It has a sleve swaged into a sheetmetal center, you would need a puller with very deep jaws to get on the swaged center and not the stamped flange.

The ball joint puller was about right to get to the swaged center. Oh well that ship sailed.

I've been corresponding with the seller, of the Protec motor. We will see how that goes.

 

[sleddriver]

Geesh...you're having all sorts of bad luck with this project! You're not alone and neither am I!

I like simple. It's just very rare in (most of) my endeavors! I recently disassembled my 23yr old vacuum for a good clean and motor bushing lube. Took far longer than I planned, but the results were well worth the effort.

If you have a DVM, you can check winding continuity. You can also just hook it up to AC, outside the unit, for a test. You'll need the caps installed of course. That'll tell you if its the motor or something going on with the control signals in your unit.

 

[DuckRyder]

Originally Posted By: sleddriver
Geesh...you're having all sorts of bad luck with this project! You're not alone and neither am I!

...


And it just keeps getting better, Vendor wasn't emailing me back so I just ordered another motor, figured I would fight it out later if needed... So new motor supposed to show up today, tracking it all day ready to put in. Talked to the mail lady about 2 said packages on another truck. No sign of another truck. nothing on tracking after 633A...
About 6 PM I tracked it and it says its delivered about noon.

Guarantee it was not delivered here. Probably at the wrong house but none of the neighbor's have it.

I think this thing needs an exorcism instead of a motor...

I did ohm out the motor and it is bad...