Russian jet shot down

[pbm]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
All Israel wants to do is live in peace, they are not expansionist.



If so, how come they give huge tax breaks to new and returning citizens? Do they want a zillion people on the same footprint?



Israel has SOLD American military secrets to the Chinese.
Israel has SOLD American espionage secrets (Pollard) to the Russians.
Israel has been spying on us long before the 'Iran nuclear deal' (which I agree is a disaster).
Israel killed 54 American sailors on the USS Liberty in 1967....and before you say it was an 'accident' read what the surviving sailors think (thought).

 

[andrewg]

Originally Posted By: pbm
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
All Israel wants to do is live in peace, they are not expansionist.



If so, how come they give huge tax breaks to new and returning citizens? Do they want a zillion people on the same footprint?



Israel has SOLD American military secrets to the Chinese.
Israel has SOLD American espionage secrets (Pollard) to the Russians.
Israel has been spying on us long before the 'Iran nuclear deal' (which I agree is a disaster).
Israel killed 54 American sailors on the USS Liberty in 1967....and before you say it was an 'accident' read what the surviving sailors think (thought).


Always one anti-Semite in the crowd.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: andrewg
[ sailors think (thought).


Always one anti-Semite in the crowd. [/quote]
This....

 

[Jetronic]

I've read articles indicatinf that nobody but the Russians now fly over Syria. I'm sure any turkish fighter crossing the border will be shot at, and most likely any turkish plane coming withing shooting range of bomber planes (regardless of what side of the border they are on) will be locked on by the S-400 system.

Before, no russian planes carried AA-missiles, but they are all equipped now, and fighters are flying CAP over the bombers.

Syrian troops are speedily advancing in the northern region and it seems the Russians are now using more modern helicopters aswell. Russia and syria seem determined to block the oil supply routes into Turkey (ISIS oil), also there would be a terrorist highway from Aleppo to Grozny.

http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151130/1031012769/russia-attack-helicopters-syria.html

http://atimes.com/2015/11/syria-conundrum-russian-bear-roars-as-the-west-slides/

 

[Alfred_B]

ISIS oil tankers after the Russians payed them a visit.

 

[Jetronic]

an interesting article about SAM effectiveness...

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-SAM-Effectiveness.html

 

[DoubleWasp]

Originally Posted By: Jetronic
an interesting article about SAM effectiveness...

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-SAM-Effectiveness.html


It's not entirely accurate, and does not factor in the modern anti-SAM technologies, and strategies.

Aircraft losses in Vietnam to SAMs were mostly due to the NV being allowed to build up their defenses unchallenged, and pathetic and repetitive attack patterns by an Air Force used to bombing empty fields and light infantry groups armed with rifles.

The modern attack chopper is one major advancement that was not used in any of the theatres the article refers to. Once the tanks, soldiers, and ground weapons moved in, those SAMS were just another slow moving target to destroy.

With reference to the "humiliating" blow by the Serbs, many more planes blew their entire military power to smithereens. It's not exactly a military victory that they shot down one whole plane, and made it cost more money to chop their military to pieces and force a withdrawal, without a single loss of human life. They were so soundly outclassed that they surrendered their 3 lone captives unconditionally before the war was over.

The article makes a good point that SAMS aren't straight up garbage, but hardly as impressive as it makes them sound. In all cases mentioned, the SAM users were either blown back to where they came from, or never faced a true military test of total war.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: dirtydannyd
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Completely agree Nick. But I view military and civilian airplanes differently.

A 747 full of people is a whole lot different than an attack aircraft, or even a reconnaissance aircraft.

And the SU-15 Flagon that shot down KAL 007 had to be very close to employ weapons. It didn't have much in the way of missiles. He was in visual range.

Unforgivable.


Unfortunately, we've also shot down civilian airliners in the fog of war. But yes, the KAL 007 shoot-down was unforgivable in absence of a active conflict...

Not like shooting down an Iranian civilian aircraft, flying in Iranian airspace, by a military Cruiser in Iranian waters.

Reality check. Don't he so quick to condemn.

Politics. A lot mightn't like the can of worms it could open. I certainly can't discuss it. It would hurt too many people here so excuse me while i prod.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655



Reality check.

The USS Vincennes was in INTERNATIONAL waters. And the airplane was, therefore in international airspace. Iran and Iraq were at war. Iraq had shot missiles at US Ships (USS Stark). There were heightened tensions that led to mistakes. NOTAMS were issued to monitor military frequencies. The Iran Air pilots were not monitoring military frequencies and so, missed multiple warning cals fro the Vincennes. .

The mistake made was of a different nature than KAL 007. KAL was observed as a passenger plane, by a fighter pilot using eyeballs. He was directed to shoot anyway. No NOTAMS. No warnings. A deliberate act in the face of clear identification.

The automatic systems on the Vincennes MIS-identified the airliner as an F-14. That was the only information they had. The systems showed the airplane descending - an attack profile. There were training and leadership issues. An act predicated on faulty information. A mistake.

Again, a tragedy, but one of automatic system interpretation vs, deliberate shoot down.

The intent matters.

 

[Alfred_B]

Quote:
And the airplane was, therefore in international airspace. Iran and Iraq were at war. Iraq had shot missiles at US Ships (USS Stark). There were heightened tensions that led to mistakes. NOTAMS were issued to monitor military frequencies. The Iran Air pilots were not monitoring military frequencies and so, missed multiple warning cals fro the Vincennes. .


Evidence says otherwise.

 

[GiveMeAVowel]

Originally Posted By: pbm
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
All Israel wants to do is live in peace, they are not expansionist.



If so, how come they give huge tax breaks to new and returning citizens? Do they want a zillion people on the same footprint?



Israel has SOLD American military secrets to the Chinese.
Israel has SOLD American espionage secrets (Pollard) to the Russians.
Israel has been spying on us long before the 'Iran nuclear deal' (which I agree is a disaster).
Israel killed 54 American sailors on the USS Liberty in 1967....and before you say it was an 'accident' read what the surviving sailors think (thought).


This needs to be seen by many more US citizens, Israel is
NO ally of the American People, they prove it on a daily basis.
It's insane that OUR tax dollars go to such an enemy!

BTW ashkanazi jews are NOT semitic.