T56 Fluid, heat, and road racing......

[PintoDave]

Hi guys,

Much respect to the BITOG forums. My first official post, although I've been reading stuff for a while on here. I did try using the search function and was surprised I didn't find any T56 stuff. If I did it wrong or missed something I apologize.

So on to the T56 application and question...

We have a 4th gen Camaro we will be road racing doing "budget endurance" racing with (Chumpcar specifically). Not super high HP levels and not crazy rpm's BUT sustained hours on track.

The debate is whether or not we can get away with a fluid for our application that will withstand the long-term heat generation without an oil cooler pump setup.

My limited knowledge of T56's tells me we need to run DexIII or syncromesh, with some T56 users reporting good results with RP syncromax.

Anyone here have any feedback on T56's or fluid usage for this type of application?

Thanks,
David

facebook.com/leadsledracing

 

[MolaKule]

I think you will need a higher viscosity fluid than any Dexron fluid can give you because the sustained heat will thin out a Dexron type fluid down to 4 cSt.


I would track test this before the rack meet:

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=45&pcid=7

 

[PintoDave]

Awesome, thanks for the feedback. I'll look into that specific redline, we've used their 75wNS in an old T10 and liked it.

That was the catch-22 that I was debating with... the dexIII would be thinner (?), generate a little less heat (?), but not as durable vs a gear oil (?)...

 

[clinebarger]

I have run Synchromesh synthetic MTL fluids in T56/TR6060 6 speeds with great results. RP, Amsoil, Redline etc.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: clinebarger
I have run Synchromesh synthetic MTL fluids in T56/TR6060 6 speeds with great results. RP, Amsoil, Redline etc.


RP is going to thin out too much during the race since it has a low viscosity starting out.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: PintoDave
Awesome, thanks for the feedback. I'll look into that specific redline, we've used their 75wNS in an old T10 and liked it.

That was the catch-22 that I was debating with... the dexIII would be thinner (?), generate a little less heat (?), but not as durable vs a gear oil (?)...


If you do not use any cooling, your problem is going to be keeping the fluid film from thinning to too low a viscosity.

In addition, any dedicated 75W80 MTF will have 5 times the AW system of any ATF.

BTW, the Amsoil MTF

http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/transmission-fluid/manual/

has almost the same starting viscosity and similar AW package.

 

[Olas]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
I think you will need a higher viscosity fluid than any Dexron fluid can give you because the sustained heat will thin out a Dexron type fluid down to 4 cSt.


I would track test this before the rack meet:

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=45&pcid=7


Not to kiss Molakule's behind, but, it's posts like these that give me confidence and reassurance in my fluid selection.
A nice, warm, fuzzy sensation of " Oh yeah baby, my baulk rings and syncro cones are gonna LOVE me.."

a lot of people on here bash RL products, but maybe they're Just regurgitating forum chatter without having any first hand experience..

 

[Gasbuggy]

OP, plenty of T56/T6060's out there with factory temp gauges installed, I would google around and see what temps people are getting on the track. I've never tracked my V, but even after 8 hours of 80 mph driving August my trans temp doesn't get over 173 degrees.

 

[UrS4]

castrol syntrans transaxle 75w-90 - this stuff is used in audi models with the manual 01E, 01A trans, and possible in other transmissions as well.
I would use this stuff in any high power manual trans!


Oh, BTW. I have heard that the GM MTF is very good too. This might be fairly easy to get.

 

[Greasymechtech]

You could see 250-300F for temp depending on length of race. Skip the Dexron conventional. A temp gauge is a must as there is no point in losing shift quality or HP to an overly thick viscosity when Mobil1 ATF, Redline D4, RoyalPurple SynchroMax... might be appropriate. DCTF's can work too.

Here are a few full synthetic MT 75w80s and some synchromesh equivalents.

http://www.drivenracingoil.com/dro/syncromesh-transmission-fluid-stf-15877html
http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/tr...on-fluid-5w-30/
http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?product=50204
http://www.synmaxperformancelubricants.com/Super_70_MTL.html
http://www.swepcolube.com/products/swepco-717-synchromesh-transmission-fluid
http://www.pennzoil.com/other-car-produc...smission-fluid/
Valvoline 811095
https://www.bgprod.com/catalog/drive-line/bg-syncro-shift-ii/

 

[PintoDave]

Good discussion guys, thanks.

Adding a temp gauge to the trans is probably a good idea so I know exactly what we are doing...

I'm pretty sold on trying the RL MTL for the majority of what we'd be doing (regular to hot weather racing, especially COTA in August ), and possibly using the D4 for an extreme cold weather event (like VIR or Road Atl in winter)

 

[69GTX]

If you have a factory stock 1998-2000 4th gen T56 some of the synthetics can cause problems with the cellulose blocker rings. In any event, the Mobil 1 synthetic ATF is a possible upgrade to the conventional ATF's.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: 69GTX
If you have a factory stock 1998-2000 4th gen T56 some of the synthetics can cause problems with the cellulose blocker rings. In any event, the Mobil 1 synthetic ATF is a possible upgrade to the conventional ATF's.


The blockers are made of composites.

There has never been a documented case where a dedicated MTF has ever damaged those blockers/rings.

Mobil 1 ATF will thin down too much during racing since it is not a racing fluid.

 

[69GTX]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
....There has never been a documented case where a dedicated MTF has ever damaged those blockers/rings....


I would only say tell that to the dozens (or hundreds?) of owners who put various synthetics in their stock T56's along the way and lost them a very short time later. While there may not be a 100% way to prove that the fluid change was the root cause, there's also no way to say it wasn't. All I know is that no one on the LS1Tech.com website (thousands of T56 owners) have ever reported (to my knowledge), that their T56 failed because of using regular DEX III ATF as recommended by GM and Tremec. You will find those who are having great success (to date) with the choice of most any fluid out there. That doesn't mean they won't fail in your particular application. Tremec still doesn't come out and recommend anything but ATF Dex 3 or M1 ATF for the T56.

I've read of problems with RL, RP, Amsoil and others. Possibly just hearsay, who really knows? What is known is that some synthetics will swell some blocker rings, which then leads to premature T56 failure. There are certainly proven failures of that occurring. M1 ATF and GM Synchromesh seem to be well thought of replacements to the conventional ATF. RL D4 ATF and Honda ATF got a lot of positive plugs too. GM MTF is just a rebranded ATF DEX 3 so that they have something to offer.

But, rather than take anyone's word for it, read the dozens of threads/thousands of posts on this subject by T56 car owners. I read them all about 3 years ago and made my own decision on what to use in my specific application. In road racing, you have more to consider. Odds seem to suggest that most anything will work well for anyone more than 90% of the time...especially in the short term. My concern is not being part of that lower 10%.

LS1tech.com

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:
Tremec still doesn't come out and recommend anything but ATF Dex 3 or M1 ATF for the T56.


Tremec could only get the T56 to shift properly with a very thin fluid, which, at the time, was an ATF, even though an ATF has only 30% of the AW additive of a dedicated MTF, and no friction modifiers found in MTFs.


Quote:
GM MTF is just a rebranded ATF DEX 3 so that they have something to offer.


GM started out with a Dexron III(H) and reformulated it with an increased level of an AW components. So it is not the same fluid.

 

[PintoDave]

So, just to revive this from the dead...

Car was run lightly a couple of times sorting stuff out, a short time @ Daytona (had other problems), a couple test days at Sebring, and most recently an event at Charlotte.

Just wanted to say THANKS! Ran the MTL the whole time, maybe just a little notchy when cold, but not bad at all. Frikking killer when up to temp, shifts amazing (in my opinion, any anyone else who's driven it!).

So, this past weekend at Charlotte (road course + oval), running off into Nascar 3 @ 135-140 finally knocked all of the exhaust wrap off of the exhaust crossover, tranny was as hot as 280! That was my threshold, any hotter and we would have had to back off (it rapidly dropped back to 240-250 under cautions, etc). Finally put a pushrod through the rocker arm 8 hours into the event, which ended our day.

Just wanted to share the success thus far with the MTL. Changing it out and heading to Sebring in September (with re-wrapped exhaust

).

David

 

[KenO]

How about Joe Gibbs MTF? It's an 80 wt manual trans fluid designed specifically for racing. I know locally of a team that ran it in their Daytona Prototype without issues... I have a bunch of it too that I'd consider selling.


I put Redline MTL exclusively in every BMW gearbox we service in my shop unless somebody specifically asks for something different. Most manual transmissions should not be getting an ATF.

 

[PintoDave]

Originally Posted By: KenO
How about Joe Gibbs MTF? It's an 80 wt manual trans fluid designed specifically for racing. I know locally of a team that ran it in their Daytona Prototype without issues... I have a bunch of it too that I'd consider selling.


I put Redline MTL exclusively in every BMW gearbox we service in my shop unless somebody specifically asks for something different. Most manual transmissions should not be getting an ATF.


Sorry, I did not check back soon enough to see your reply, I was just putting a reply up that I decided to go with the Amsoil for Sebring since it has a touch higher visc than the Redline. Good thought on the Gibbs MTF, I have no experience with their product line but their 80w is probably comparable to the Redline & Amsoil.

Will post feedback on shift behavior with the Amsoil after the race.