Towing in 3rd or drive

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I can't speak to the Jeep but I do have some experience with the 700R4/4L60/4L60e transmissions. I've repaired and rebuilt my share during my career as a tech in GM dealerships. Here's my short simple recommendation: Keep it out of the overdrive position at all times except for light highway cruising. Do this and you may see some fantastic service out of these gear boxes.

Here's the long version. The torque converter clutch (tcc) circuit is not fed by its own dedicated circuit off the pump. It is fed off of the lubrication circuit. When the tcc is locked, the lube circuit has no leaks other than the normal pressure loses as fluid finds its way past the bushings, gears, and the rest of the geartrain. When the converter is unlocked, fluid directed to the tcc circuit in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gears is exhausted through the de-energized tcc solenoid. When engine r.p.m.s are high, as in 2nd and 3rd gears, the pump creates enough fluid flow to overcome the open tcc solenoid as well as keep everything else lubricated.

Things get a bit crazy towing in 4th. Engine rpm is down so the pump output is down. Since your towing the vehicle is typically under load. The converter unlocks and it the transmission stays in 4th, your lube circuit is under performing. The fluid gets hot, the overall line pressure goes down because of the leak and the low pump output, exactly opposite of what you need while towing. Let your imagination tell you what happens in this high load / low lube condition.

If you could monitor tcc lock-up and maintain lock-up in 4th, you could tow in 4th. I can't imagine how fast you would be going to accomplish this. And you have a trailer at this speed? Not me.

For what its worth, I maintain my own personal fleet of vehicles, most with overdrive automatics. I have examples with 150k and 190k miles with original gearboxes. These vehicles never see overdrive unless they are unloaded and on the freeway.

Hope this helps.
 
With my TB, I tow in 3rd. I have the 3.42 gears, couple this with poor low end torque I found the best was using 3rd. I have towed upwards of 4500 pounds (2 horse steel trailer with two adult Arab's)and 3rd was the way to go. This thing is not a truck and I found it works best to keep the speed down.
 
Originally Posted By: Nick1994
The vehicles aren't mine, they're my grandparent's. A lot of the use of the trailer is for them, hauling stuff to the dump or going to Home Depot.

Trailblazer has a 3:73 gear ratio and Jeep has 3:55.

Interstate travel is on the I-10 toward California (flat) and sometimes I take it to Prescott on the I-17 (mountainous)


3rd for sure in the Cherokee. I towed from VA to MT with my '04 Grand with the 4.0, 4 speed and 3.55s. Overdrive was simply too tall a gear, especially on hills. Going downhill I would let it get into o/d if engine braking wasn't needed.
 
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the true "problem" is if the transmission keeps hunting between locking and unlocking the converter. The Aisan Warner AW4 is bulletproof. you can use them for plowing and still not trash them. I had an 89 Comanche with the 4.0 and the AW4. I towed 10's of thousands of miles: easily 50k miles towing two snowmobiles, 3 different boats. I added a cooler, used synthetic fluid, and never had a transmission concern. I did not turn off the OD or use the "power" switch when towing. the truck was still running strong at 175k when a relative totaled the truck. 2000 lbs is not a heavy trailer - although your setup is not very aerodynamic. I concur that the brakes aren't great - especially when you put 31" tires on there like I did....
 
I should add that when I tow my 6000 lb boat, my OD is always off... and my fingers are crossed: 110,000 miles on a Dodge transmission....
 
Originally Posted By: Nick1994
Originally Posted By: madRiver
Isn't towing 2000 lbs at 75 mph putting excess wear on a poor Cherokee.

Third gear would wind the engine out and I don't understand driving that fast with a homemade trailer that appears to be a wind block. Seems a tad dangerous at that speed with subpar brakes a jeep has.

Be kind to your grandparents nice suv.
75 mph is the speed limit on the highway, and the Jeep is rated to tow 5,000 pounds, Trailblazer 5,700 pounds. The Jeep has been bulletproof and gets beaten hard on rough dirt roads when taken out to the desert. Doesn't skip a beat. It's getting new leaf springs probably this weekend.


75 mph was not incorporated into the 5000 lb tow rating. The brakes are garbage on a Cherokee. Also lacking trailer brakes lowers capability. A Cherokee is a light weight toy to a trailer.

Be careful.
 
Originally Posted By: casamagana
I can't speak to the Jeep but I do have some experience with the 700R4/4L60/4L60e transmissions. I've repaired and rebuilt my share during my career as a tech in GM dealerships. Here's my short simple recommendation: Keep it out of the overdrive position at all times except for light highway cruising. Do this and you may see some fantastic service out of these gear boxes.

Here's the long version. The torque converter clutch (tcc) circuit is not fed by its own dedicated circuit off the pump. It is fed off of the lubrication circuit. When the tcc is locked, the lube circuit has no leaks other than the normal pressure loses as fluid finds its way past the bushings, gears, and the rest of the geartrain. When the converter is unlocked, fluid directed to the tcc circuit in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gears is exhausted through the de-energized tcc solenoid. When engine r.p.m.s are high, as in 2nd and 3rd gears, the pump creates enough fluid flow to overcome the open tcc solenoid as well as keep everything else lubricated.

Things get a bit crazy towing in 4th. Engine rpm is down so the pump output is down. Since your towing the vehicle is typically under load. The converter unlocks and it the transmission stays in 4th, your lube circuit is under performing. The fluid gets hot, the overall line pressure goes down because of the leak and the low pump output, exactly opposite of what you need while towing. Let your imagination tell you what happens in this high load / low lube condition.

If you could monitor tcc lock-up and maintain lock-up in 4th, you could tow in 4th. I can't imagine how fast you would be going to accomplish this. And you have a trailer at this speed? Not me.

For what its worth, I maintain my own personal fleet of vehicles, most with overdrive automatics. I have examples with 150k and 190k miles with original gearboxes. These vehicles never see overdrive unless they are unloaded and on the freeway.

Hope this helps.


Thanks for that explanation, casamagana. I've always heard that the 700R4/4L60E runs hot, but never WHY.

Do you know if the "Tow/Haul" setting on the 4L60E does anything to help that lubrication issue?

Nick: Does the Trailblazer have the tow/haul button on the shift lever? That might make some difference, but I would probably slow down and use 3rd.
 
I used to haul 2000 lbs in the summers religiously with my WJ. Same engine and gearing, but different transmission and 4 wheel disk brakes. The vehicle itself just weighs more plus it has slightly larger tires.

I would drive 55-60 MPH on the highway with the OD off. Never saw the interstate. Stopping wasnt an issue at all assuming extra braking distance was taken into consideration.
 
The 42RE also has a taller 4th gear than the AW-4 in the Cherokee IIRC.

I have towed a lot, but I was definitely surprised by how poorly my Cherokee stopped while towing my popup, gear while on 32'' tires. Get up and go felt about like the time I towed another Jeep with it but it just would NOT stop. Going from 30'' tires to 32'' made a huge difference.

No problem with power. But that was using 2nd gear on the highway!
 
Originally Posted By: Rhymingmechanic
Originally Posted By: casamagana
I can't speak to the Jeep but I do have some experience with the 700R4/4L60/4L60e transmissions. I've repaired and rebuilt my share during my career as a tech in GM dealerships. Here's my short simple recommendation: Keep it out of the overdrive position at all times except for light highway cruising. Do this and you may see some fantastic service out of these gear boxes.

Here's the long version. The torque converter clutch (tcc) circuit is not fed by its own dedicated circuit off the pump. It is fed off of the lubrication circuit. When the tcc is locked, the lube circuit has no leaks other than the normal pressure loses as fluid finds its way past the bushings, gears, and the rest of the geartrain. When the converter is unlocked, fluid directed to the tcc circuit in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gears is exhausted through the de-energized tcc solenoid. When engine r.p.m.s are high, as in 2nd and 3rd gears, the pump creates enough fluid flow to overcome the open tcc solenoid as well as keep everything else lubricated.

Things get a bit crazy towing in 4th. Engine rpm is down so the pump output is down. Since your towing the vehicle is typically under load. The converter unlocks and it the transmission stays in 4th, your lube circuit is under performing. The fluid gets hot, the overall line pressure goes down because of the leak and the low pump output, exactly opposite of what you need while towing. Let your imagination tell you what happens in this high load / low lube condition.

If you could monitor tcc lock-up and maintain lock-up in 4th, you could tow in 4th. I can't imagine how fast you would be going to accomplish this. And you have a trailer at this speed? Not me.

For what its worth, I maintain my own personal fleet of vehicles, most with overdrive automatics. I have examples with 150k and 190k miles with original gearboxes. These vehicles never see overdrive unless they are unloaded and on the freeway.

Hope this helps.


Thanks for that explanation, casamagana. I've always heard that the 700R4/4L60E runs hot, but never WHY.

Do you know if the "Tow/Haul" setting on the 4L60E does anything to help that lubrication issue?

Nick: Does the Trailblazer have the tow/haul button on the shift lever? That might make some difference, but I would probably slow down and use 3rd.
No tow/haul button
 
Originally Posted By: casamagana
I can't speak to the Jeep but I do have some experience with the 700R4/4L60/4L60e transmissions. I've repaired and rebuilt my share during my career as a tech in GM dealerships. Here's my short simple recommendation: Keep it out of the overdrive position at all times except for light highway cruising. Do this and you may see some fantastic service out of these gear boxes.

Here's the long version. The torque converter clutch (tcc) circuit is not fed by its own dedicated circuit off the pump. It is fed off of the lubrication circuit. When the tcc is locked, the lube circuit has no leaks other than the normal pressure loses as fluid finds its way past the bushings, gears, and the rest of the geartrain. When the converter is unlocked, fluid directed to the tcc circuit in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gears is exhausted through the de-energized tcc solenoid. When engine r.p.m.s are high, as in 2nd and 3rd gears, the pump creates enough fluid flow to overcome the open tcc solenoid as well as keep everything else lubricated.

Things get a bit crazy towing in 4th. Engine rpm is down so the pump output is down. Since your towing the vehicle is typically under load. The converter unlocks and it the transmission stays in 4th, your lube circuit is under performing. The fluid gets hot, the overall line pressure goes down because of the leak and the low pump output, exactly opposite of what you need while towing. Let your imagination tell you what happens in this high load / low lube condition.

If you could monitor tcc lock-up and maintain lock-up in 4th, you could tow in 4th. I can't imagine how fast you would be going to accomplish this. And you have a trailer at this speed? Not me.

For what its worth, I maintain my own personal fleet of vehicles, most with overdrive automatics. I have examples with 150k and 190k miles with original gearboxes. These vehicles never see overdrive unless they are unloaded and on the freeway.

Hope this helps.


Some great info here! Sheds some light onto this common transmission. And one of its common complaints.

Question: Does this series of transmissions do lockup in 3rd gear also? I thought it did. Regardless, is lubrication good in 3rd unlocked? A number of these transmissions wound up in non-tow setups (IOW, tall rear gears), and I wonder if 3rd gear pushing against say 3.23 (or 3.08's!) might be like 4th pushing 3.73's, with similar bad results.

Using a 31" tall tire, long ago I made a spreadsheet of engine rpm per gear (as I was shopping Chevy trucks). It assumes "locked" convertor, which isn't true when it's unlocked (duh); but since stall speed is usually around 1800-2000, once engine speed is about 2k or so, slippage is adding minimal heat.

60mph:
3.08:1, 4th=1438rpm, 3rd=2054rpm, 2nd=3349rpm
3.23:1, 4th=1508rpm, 3rd=2154rpm, 2nd=3512rpm
3.42:1, 4th=1597rpm, 3rd=2281rpm, 2nd=3718rpm
3.73:1, 4th=1742rpm, 3rd=2488rpm, 2nd=4055rpm
4.11:1, 4th=1919rpm, 3rd=2741rpm, 2nd=4468rpm

I wonder what a good min engine speed would be, for the 700R4 derivatives to stay properly lubed if the convertor is unlocked. Wild guess says 2,500rpm, between keeping convertor losses low and keeping pump pressure high, going off of casamagana's info.
 
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Originally Posted By: Miller88
The 42RE also has a taller 4th gear than the AW-4 in the Cherokee IIRC.


IIRC, one of the common complaints about the AW4 is how hot it runs. Not that the transmission seems to care, it seems to shrug it off. But I wonder if they sized the pump to provide enough pressure at the lowest pump input speed so as to hold all the clutches properly--meaning, anything above idle it's bleeding off tons of pressure (creating that heat) and thus not running into the same problem as the 700R4? IOW, maybe the AW4 doesn't care about towing in 4th, outside of heat buildup? [So you'd want to be in 3rd anyhow, but you're not running into a lubrication issue.]
 
I think it could be a lack of logic in the transmission control module. If I'm climbing a hill in mine going 55 in overdrive, it will just unlock the torque converter and run at HIGHER rpm than if it just downshifted and locked the torque converter in 3rd.

In the Cherokees they also won't lock up the torque converter at all below 35MPH.
 
Originally Posted By: Miller88
I think it could be a lack of logic in the transmission control module. If I'm climbing a hill in mine going 55 in overdrive, it will just unlock the torque converter and run at HIGHER rpm than if it just downshifted and locked the torque converter in 3rd.

In the Cherokees they also won't lock up the torque converter at all below 35MPH.


My truck is the same exact way--it will try to run unlocked in 6th gear, but I can get lower rpm in 5th locked. Won't do lockup in 3rd, although I forget now what min speed for lockup--I think it' somewhat variable, depending upon temperature and speed.
 
Tow / haul does not help the lube issue. It is only a different shift schedule, kinda like a shift kit. The tow / haul switch is just an input to the pcm / tcm to tell it to shift harder and later.
 
Originally Posted By: supton
Originally Posted By: casamagana
I can't speak to the Jeep but I do have some experience with the 700R4/4L60/4L60e transmissions. I've repaired and rebuilt my share during my career as a tech in GM dealerships. Here's my short simple recommendation: Keep it out of the overdrive position at all times except for light highway cruising. Do this and you may see some fantastic service out of these gear boxes.

Here's the long version. The torque converter clutch (tcc) circuit is not fed by its own dedicated circuit off the pump. It is fed off of the lubrication circuit. When the tcc is locked, the lube circuit has no leaks other than the normal pressure loses as fluid finds its way past the bushings, gears, and the rest of the geartrain. When the converter is unlocked, fluid directed to the tcc circuit in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gears is exhausted through the de-energized tcc solenoid. When engine r.p.m.s are high, as in 2nd and 3rd gears, the pump creates enough fluid flow to overcome the open tcc solenoid as well as keep everything else lubricated.

Things get a bit crazy towing in 4th. Engine rpm is down so the pump output is down. Since your towing the vehicle is typically under load. The converter unlocks and it the transmission stays in 4th, your lube circuit is under performing. The fluid gets hot, the overall line pressure goes down because of the leak and the low pump output, exactly opposite of what you need while towing. Let your imagination tell you what happens in this high load / low lube condition.

If you could monitor tcc lock-up and maintain lock-up in 4th, you could tow in 4th. I can't imagine how fast you would be going to accomplish this. And you have a trailer at this speed? Not me.

For what its worth, I maintain my own personal fleet of vehicles, most with overdrive automatics. I have examples with 150k and 190k miles with original gearboxes. These vehicles never see overdrive unless they are unloaded and on the freeway.

Hope this helps.


Some great info here! Sheds some light onto this common transmission. And one of its common complaints.

Question: Does this series of transmissions do lockup in 3rd gear also? I thought it did. Regardless, is lubrication good in 3rd unlocked? A number of these transmissions wound up in non-tow setups (IOW, tall rear gears), and I wonder if 3rd gear pushing against say 3.23 (or 3.08's!) might be like 4th pushing 3.73's, with similar bad results.

Using a 31" tall tire, long ago I made a spreadsheet of engine rpm per gear (as I was shopping Chevy trucks). It assumes "locked" convertor, which isn't true when it's unlocked (duh); but since stall speed is usually around 1800-2000, once engine speed is about 2k or so, slippage is adding minimal heat.

60mph:
3.08:1, 4th=1438rpm, 3rd=2054rpm, 2nd=3349rpm
3.23:1, 4th=1508rpm, 3rd=2154rpm, 2nd=3512rpm
3.42:1, 4th=1597rpm, 3rd=2281rpm, 2nd=3718rpm
3.73:1, 4th=1742rpm, 3rd=2488rpm, 2nd=4055rpm
4.11:1, 4th=1919rpm, 3rd=2741rpm, 2nd=4468rpm

I wonder what a good min engine speed would be, for the 700R4 derivatives to stay properly lubed if the convertor is unlocked. Wild guess says 2,500rpm, between keeping convertor losses low and keeping pump pressure high, going off of casamagana's info.
The 700R4, 4L60, and 4L60e are all mechanically capable of of lock up in 2nd, 3rd, and/or 4th. Depending on the model and application, internal gearbox wiring and pcm calibration determines if is electronically available in the vehicle.

3rd gear and tcc unlock still dumps lube fluid out of the tcc solenoid but the pump is spinning faster and can make up the volume loss without the pressure loss.
 
75MPH may be the maximum legal speed limit on AZ highways but it doesn't mean you are obliged to drive that fast!
MINIMUM legal speed limit is likely 50MPH.
When towing, I think anything over 60MPH is pushing the safety, mechanical and handling limits and just asking for trouble.

Especialy with a home made contraption as seen in the first post (old pickup truck box)
With an open front end/closed tailgate you are basicaly dragging a parachute there, poor Jeep...
 
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Originally Posted By: Nick1994
At 75 mph I'm practically getting run off the road on I-10, 65 mph won't be too fun but I don't want really high RPMs


Swift, one of the largest trucking companies in the country, is based in Phoenix.

Do you know what their trucks are governed at?
 
Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Originally Posted By: Nick1994
At 75 mph I'm practically getting run off the road on I-10, 65 mph won't be too fun but I don't want really high RPMs


Swift, one of the largest trucking companies in the country, is based in Phoenix.

Do you know what their trucks are governed at?

They were governed around 70 mph, then the economy hit and they're governed at 65 mph now for fuel economy reasons.

How do I know this? My aunt has worked for [removed] in the IT Department for 20 years.

But that speed limit is only for the trucks [removed] owns. Owner-operators who own their own trucks and pull [removed] trailers have no speed limit.
 
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